And Then There Were Two (Candle Sticks)

Barraco said:

Did anyone else catch the change in quantity of candle sticks (churches) between Revelation 1 and Revelation 11? Jesus had no rebukes for only two out of the seven churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia. When the two witnesses are anointed with power in Revelation 11, there are only two candle sticks. What are your thoughts on this? Where are the other five candle sticks?

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Interesting question!

There is no whisked away rapture, so these five types of churches are still present on earth, they are just dealing with five different problems during the time when 'Lucifer' (the Dragon with 7 crowns (Rev 12:3), the 7th King of Revelation 17:10), the King of Babylon has confirmed the covenant, but has not yet broken it. (This is the same time as the two witnesses.)

Smyrna represents one of the two witnesses. They are characterized as being slandered by Jews - Jews that belong to the synagogue of Satan. 'Lucifer' has started building the temple and they love it!

Philadelphia represents the other witness. It is interesting to note that here in the other faithful church, they also have to deal with the contempt of the synagogue of Satan.

Ephesus has the problem of being lukewarm:
Pergamum eats food sacrificed to idols and practices sexual immorality.
Thyatira has the same problems and will be thrown into great tribulation (at the 6th Trumpet or at the 7th Trumpet) if they don't repent.
Sardis is lukewarm and in danger of being rejected.

Laodicea is lukewarm due to their being rich.

Barraco said:

Did anyone else catch the change in quantity of candle sticks (churches) between Revelation 1 and Revelation 11? Jesus had no rebukes for only two out of the seven churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia. When the two witnesses are anointed with power in Revelation 11, there are only two candle sticks. What are your thoughts on this? Where are the other five candle sticks?

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I don't see the works of the two witnesses as being good.If they were good,they would spend more time doing the things Jesus commands his witnesses to do in the gospel and less time tormenting people.

At no time does Jesus ever command his disciples to kill and torment other people.

I expect the people In Israel to receive the mark of the Israeli government while those two witnesses are there.

Barraco said:

Jesus said that the world would hate His disciples because they first hated Him. When Cyrene was bishop, Decius blamed the pestilence on the Christians, saying the gods were angry at them for tolerating them. What you will see with the two witnesses is them being blessed while the rest of the world suffers. The logical reasoning is that they are causing it. Elijah prayed for the rain to stop, not to kill people but to lead them to repentance from Baal worship. Moses turned the sea into blood to compel Pharaoh to let the Israelites go to their own land to worship God. It was not meant to kill people. It was meant to cause repentance.

One interesting facet of it all is that these two witnesses can retaliate as harsh as they want without having to answer to anyone. Now, they were nations, who would they be? Israel and America? During the Great Tribulation, these two witnesses will be preserved while the world experiences great distress and testing. Zechariah even said that 2/3 of Jews in the land would be annihilated while a third would be refined in the fire. This happens during the reign of the beast.

Notice the first trumpet shows a third of trees and vegetation catching on fire. Probably because the two witnesses prayed for no rain and so a drought caused a fire risk that crippled a third of the world’s produce capacity. Notice also that the second trumpet turns the water to blood, causing damage to a third of fishing industry and seafaring production. Just like in politics, there is a middle ground of undecided people during the Great Tribulation. The tribulation will expose whether they have faith planted in good soil or faith planted elsewhere. By the seventh trumpet, there will only be those that follow the Lamb and those that follow the beast.

So like Elijah, Smyrna testified boldly of the true Savior. Like Moses, Philadelphia followed God’s commands. Both these two prophets witness to the Jews and against the false prophets Balaam and Jezebel. And what is prophecy? Testimony of Jesus Christ.

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The Bible says they torment and kill people.

Here is an instance Jesus had with his disciples concerning killing other people.

Luke 9:54-55 King James Version (KJV)And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.


Apparently the two witnesses don't have anyone to rebuke them.I still believe they will give everyone in Israel the mark of the beast.We will soon find out in the coming years after the king of the north gives Israel his armed forces to occupy Israel for 1260 days

Barraco said:

I have a theory about that. Drawing from the breaking of the stick called Bands in Zechariah 11, I believe the abomination of desolation sparks a civil war in which Israel splits between North and South, with the false messiah being driven north. This is reminiscent of when Antiochus IV sacrificed a pig in the temple, causing the faithful Jews to revolt. This would be the event in Daniel 11:40 that provokes the king of the south to attack the king of the north.

At the heart of Jerusalem, the Temple Mount, the Two Witnesses will be preserved during the time of their prophecy, while the city at large is trampled underfoot by the beast kingdom. This would make sense of the fifth trumpet because a siege of the city would be used to make the Two Witnesses desperate, but God provides for those who are sealed. This is where the mark of the beast comes in. Nobody in the city will be able to buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast or the number of his name. The Two Witnesses are testifying to the exact opposite of the False Prophet (which has two horns). Much like Jerusalem in 70 AD, the temple wall will be broken through after the fifth month of the siege and the beast from the Abyss will kill them.

Also keep in mind, that the Two Witnesses testify that Jesus is the true Messiah and is coming back. They stand completely opposed to the beast and false prophet. It is not the people they are warring with. It is the false messiah and false prophet. The Two Witnesses are trying to bring the people to Jesus, just like Moses opposed Pharaoh to get him to let the Israelites worship God in their own land.

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The abomination of desolation is a nuke which causes desolation .
It takes place on the day of the Lord and it is what causes the great earthquake and the heavens to depart from the earth like a scroll being rolled together in revelation 6.

The two witnesses ascend into heaven in that cloud.

Barraco said:

Did anyone else catch the change in quantity of candle sticks (churches) between Revelation 1 and Revelation 11? Jesus had no rebukes for only two out of the seven churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia. When the two witnesses are anointed with power in Revelation 11, there are only two candle sticks. What are your thoughts on this? Where are the other five candle sticks?

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The "Two Witnesses" will have literal physical bodies that will be killed and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem upon this earth, as a literal world celebrates their death as scripture describes below

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Barraco said:

I would have to disagree. Nothing comparable to a nuke happens until the sixth trumpet in Revelation 9. The fourth horseman kills a quarter of the earth with sword, famine, pestilence, and wild animals. This is the same plague God used on Jerusalem in 608 BC. Take a look

“Say this to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: As surely as I live, those who are left in the ruins will fall by the sword, those out in the country I will give to the wild animals to be devoured, and those in strongholds and caves will die of a plague. 28 I will make the land a desolate waste, and her proud strength will come to an end, and the mountains of Israel will become desolate so that no one will cross them" (Ezekiel 33:27-28 NIV)

"I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a curse[c] and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10 I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’” (Jeremiah 24:9-10 NIV)

"Outside is the sword; inside are plague and famine. Those in the country will die by the sword; those in the city will be devoured by famine and plague." (Ezekiel 7:15 NIV)

"So now, be sure of this: You will die by the sword, famine and plague in the place where you want to go to settle.” (Jeremiah 42:22 NIV)

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You believe a great earthquake and a cloud departing from the earth like a scroll being rolled together is not comparable to a nuclear explosion?

It is the perfect description of a nuke.

It takes place after the 6th seal.is opened and before the seventh Trump.

This is John's description.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


That cloud rising from earth and that great earthquake is also mentioned in revelation. 11

Revelation 11
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.



This is what a great earthquake and cloud departing as a scroll being rolled together looks like.



According to Daniel 11:31,it is the armed forces of the north which set up the abomination that causes desolation .Anyone with common sense would know what the most powerful military the world has ever seen would use to cause desolation.

Barraco said:

If you take a look at the symbols in Zechariah 4, there is evidence that the two witnesses are not just two prophets, but two groups of people. I’ll explain.

The olive trees in Zechariah 4 are families of priests and kings. They have branches that extend out and pour oil into a menorah. Those branches are Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the governor. The menorah is the house of God in Zion with the seven-fold Spirit present in it.

So, going back to Revelation 11, there are two olive trees but no olive branches extending. That is because both branches were symbolic of Jesus Christ, the Messiah. So these two olive trees are two groups of people. They are a kingdom of priests, a common theme throughout the book of Revelation. The two candlesticks are the two houses they are commissioned to build.

Here is where it gets a bit tricky. Zechariah foretold that the house of E

Absolutely they are physical. I think they are both individuals and groups of people. The rest of the book gives us clues.

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The "Two Witnesses" will be literal prophets returned "two olive branches", the golden oil in vials and plagues will be poured "through them" upon the earth, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Zechariah 4:12-14KJV
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 5:8KJV
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 15:6-8KJV
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Truth7t7 said:

The "Two Witnesses" will be literal prophets returned "two olive branches", the golden oil in vials and plagues will be poured "through them" upon the earth, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Zechariah 4:12-14KJV
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 5:8KJV
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 15:6-8KJV
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

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The plagues which the armed forces under the two witnesses smite the earth with is not the plagues of the angels.

It's not the same thing.

Barraco said:

Did anyone else catch the change in quantity of candle sticks (churches) between Revelation 1 and Revelation 11? Jesus had no rebukes for only two out of the seven churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia. When the two witnesses are anointed with power in Revelation 11, there are only two candle sticks. What are your thoughts on this? Where are the other five candle sticks?

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No I didn't catch it. Interesting. I have no idea about the whereabouts of the other 5, but I would imagine they would still be around except that many are called but few are chosen, if you know what I mean.

Barraco said:

If you take a look at the symbols in Zechariah 4, there is evidence that the two witnesses are not just two prophets, but two groups of people. I’ll explain.

The olive trees in Zechariah 4 are families of priests and kings. They have branches that extend out and pour oil into a menorah. Those branches are Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the governor. The menorah is the house of God in Zion with the seven-fold Spirit present in it.

So, going back to Revelation 11, there are two olive trees but no olive branches extending. That is because both branches were symbolic of Jesus Christ, the Messiah. So these two olive trees are two groups of people. They are a kingdom of priests, a common theme throughout the book of Revelation. The two candlesticks are the two houses they are commissioned to build.

Here is where it gets a bit tricky. Zechariah foretold that the house of E

Absolutely they are physical. I think they are both individuals and groups of people. The rest of the book gives us clues.

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I'm interested to know what you meant to type after the house of E in your second to last sentence.

I've noticed that Zech 4 gives a clue, but did not understand it with the same depth as above.

A SUMMARY OF THE MESSAGES TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES

1. Do not forget your first love (Ephesus). Do the first works.

2. Do not become luke-warm (Laodicea). If you are Luke-warm, ask Jesus to send you a trial that will break your luke-warm state and make you return to Him (gold tried in the fire).

3. Keep your faith alive and do not let it die (Sardis). Though this is not said in the message to this church, it's reasonable to assume that the consequence of letting faith die is that there may be no oil in your lamps when He returns (Matthew 25:1-13).

4. Guard the Word of God in your hearts and follow Jesus only so that you do not believe or follow the false doctrines of false teachers and false prophets (Pergamos and Thyatira).

5. Do not ever do the evil practices that the false doctrines of false teachers and false prophets permit or even promote but which God hates (Pergamos and Thyatira).

Otherwise Jesus will remove your lampstand out of its place (Ephesus), fight His enemies in the churches with the sword of His mouth (Pergamos), throw them into great tribulation and kill them with death (Thyatira), and come upon them all as a thief - suddenly and when they are least expecting it (Sardis).

If you are none of these enemies of Jesus but are nevertheless Luke-warm, Jesus is calling you to repentance - otherwise He will vomit you out of His mouth. (Ephesus: Revelation 2:4-5; Pergamos: Revelation 2:16; Thyatira: Revelation 2:22-23; Sardis: Revelation 3:3; Laodicea: Revelation 3:16-20.)

But if you are suffering under tribulation and poverty, or being thrown into prison and under great attack from Satan (Smyrna and Philadelphia) then remember that you are rich if you remain faithful unto death, keeping His Word and not denying His name, because you will not be hurt by the second death. And greater blessings than any eye has seen or ear heard (1 Corinthians 2:9) await you.

Seven eyes

"For behold! I will bring forth My Servant the Branch. For behold the stone that I have set before Joshua: On one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its engraving, says the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day." Zechariah 3:9

"And I said, I see, and behold, a lampstand, all of it gold, and a bowl on its top, and its seven lamps on it, and twice seven pipes to the seven lamps on its top" Zechariah 4:2

" ..These seven are the eyes of the LORD which run to and fro through the whole earth." Zechariah 4:10b

"And I looked, and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, amidst the elders, a Lamb stood, as if it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." Revelation 5:6

"This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD of hosts." Zechariah 4:6

"And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth." Revelation 11:3-4

"And he said, These are the two sons of fresh oil who stand by the LORD of the whole earth." Zechariah 14:14.

"And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded. And he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters in the river were turned to blood."

Rev 11:6 “These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.”

Revelation 16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood."

I'm very interested to see what else you discover regarding these two witnesses. I never thought about what you said about the two faithful churches in your first post.

Barraco said:

I meant to say the house of Ephraim and the house of Judah. Ezekiel 37 and Zechariah 10 show both houses of Israel becoming one nation again. However, Zechariah 11:14 shows the breaking of that union at the coming of a worthless shepherd. After that, Zechariah only mentions the house of Judah and the house of Jerusalem. This seems to suggest an apostasy will occur which separates Israel into North and South. (A connection to Daniel 11:36-45?)

Zechariah was sent to urge the remaining exiles to leave their lands and return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple. Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the governor led the effort. The problem, as Zechariah 5 suggests, is that many of the exiles lived comfortable lives in Exile. Zechariah prophesied two things would happen: 1) The exiles would become corrupted and 2) their kings would oppress them. Only those who returned could take hold of the promises of God.

That message is relevant now more than ever. The restoration of Israel in their own land and holy city, the persecution of Jews that press them to relocate back to the promised land, the economic turmoil striking the nations that chase out the Jews, and the desolation of Gaza securing the southern border. I believe the seven seals have the effect of bringing the Jews back to Jerusalem and into a relationship with Jesus.

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Thanks.

HOUSE OF EPHRAIM

It's interesting what you say bout the house of Ephraim and the apostasy, because (for reasons that would take long to explain) I believe that the house of Ephraim is the Gentiles in Christ and Paul prophesied both of an apostasy and a worthless shepherd in 2 Thess 2:4.

TEMPLE OF GOD BEING DEFILED

I know that most people believe that the naos (sanctuary of God) mentioned in 2 Thess 2:4 is a physical rebuilt temple in Jerusalem

- but that word naos (sanctuary of God) stops being used in reference to the Jerusalem temple in the verses in the gospels that talk about the tearing of the veil in that sanctuary when Jesus died on the cross.

It's not used in reference to the Jerusalem temple after that.

The word used for the temple complex in Jerusalem is hieron.

Inside the hieron was the naos (sanctuary of God/Holy Place):

ἱερόν hierón (hee-er-on'): [Strongs Greek Dictionary] 02411 (English: Temple):
neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts, whereas 3485 [naós] denotes the central sanctuary itself (of the Temple in Jerusalem, or elsewhere).

Not surprisingly every time we read about Jesus going into the temple, the word used is hieron because Jesus was not a priest under Mosaic law and was not allowed to enter the naos.

The multiple times that the temple in Jerusalem is mentioned after the death and resurrection of Jesus (mainly in Acts) only the word hieron is used, and the words "hagios topos" (holy place) are used for when the Jews accused Paul of defiling "this holy place"

- but not the word naos.

The only times Acts uses the word naos in reference to the sanctuary of God is where Luke wrote:

Acts 7:48a
But, the Most High does not dwell in a temple sanctuary (Greek: naos) made with (human) hands.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temple sanctuaries (Greek naos) made with (human) hands.

(Once in the entire New Testament, naos is used for a pagan sanctuary - the shrine of Diana - also in Acts).

The one time Paul was talking about the temple in Jerusalem in his letters, the word hieron is used

- but every time Paul speaks about the bodies of individual believers or of the church and calls it the temple of God, the word naos is used.

Paul used the word naos in 2 Thess 2:4, not the word hieron.


(word used: naós)

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21:21; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22

2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 11:1-2.

HOLY CITY

Notice how Revelation 11:19 uses the word naos for sanctuary (temple) of God but Revelation 11:1-2 also uses the same word - but
Revelation 11:2 is talking about the holy city - and there are no verses in the Revelation where the other cities mentioned in the Revelation are called "the holy city"

("Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out),

but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

So I find it very interesting that you mention that the House of Ephraim will go into apostasy - but the House of Ephraim is not referring to the Jews in Christ, IMO, but to the Gentiles in Christ, and the worthless shepherd IMO is the man of sin of 2 Thess 2:4.

PS: I'm a Gentile Christian. Not Jewish. I'm speaking objectively. Not with prejudice.

Barraco said:

Did anyone else catch the change in quantity of candle sticks (churches) between Revelation 1 and Revelation 11? Jesus had no rebukes for only two out of the seven churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia. When the two witnesses are anointed with power in Revelation 11, there are only two candle sticks. What are your thoughts on this? Where are the other five candle sticks?

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While the difference in the quantity of the lampstands between chapter 1 and chapter 11 is interesting, I'm not quite sure that these comparative quantities are referring to the same spiritual entities, Barraco.