Anabaptist/Baptist differences

[MrJim]

Anabaptist and Baptist-does anyone think it odd that baptists would be placed into the same group that lists the traditional peace churches (anabaptist/brethren/quaker)?

I have found a lot of differences between these two groups and it just seemed to be an odd fit-especially seeing how well all the other groups/denominations are divided.

Maybe this has been touched on before, but hey I'm the newbie...

 

[Matthan]

Theologically speaking, the only real difference between them Anabaptists and us is that we can spit farther....

Matthan <J><

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think the biggest difference is the one Menno mentioned - Anabaptist, Quaker, and Brethren, too, if I'm not mistaken - are traditional peace churches. Also the Anabaptists (I'm not quite so sure about Quakers and Brethren) are much more group-oriented, while Baptists are extremely individualistic.

Compared to other denominations, I think Baptists and Anabaptists tend to be in the same camp on most other issues.

 

[Crazy Liz]

BTW, there are some other threads. To find them, you might start here.

 

[rural_preacher]

I agree...the only doctrinal difference I've been able to discern is the anabaptist adherence to peace/non-resistence teachings verses baptist's support and participation in the military - including the chaplaincy.

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[Crazy Liz]

I wouldn't quite say that is the ONLY difference. I think there is a difference in our ecclesiology, even though both have congregational forms of polity. The difference is subtle but significant. It has to do with what I said about being less individualistic. For example, an Anabaptist is not baptized without at the same time being received into fellowship (and the mutual accountability that goes with it) in a local body of believers. Also, WRT interpretation of scripture: Baptists believe in something called "soul competence," I believe, while Anabaptists say the whole church interprets scripture together, rather than individuals interpreting it privately.

 

[rural_preacher]

I wouldn't quite say that is the ONLY difference. I think there is a difference in our ecclesiology, even though both have congregational forms of polity. The difference is subtle but significant. It has to do with what I said about being less individualistic. For example, an Anabaptist is not baptized without at the same time being received into fellowship (and the mutual accountability that goes with it) in a local body of believers. Also, WRT interpretation of scripture: Baptists believe in something called "soul competence," I believe, while Anabaptists say the whole church interprets scripture together, rather than individuals interpreting it privately.

Maybe we don't disagree on as much as you think.

Every Baptist church I have ever been in requires that a person who is baptized in that church also join the membership of that church. I'm sure there are some Baptist churches that are willing to baptize people without bringing them into the membership, but I would say they are in a very small minority. Baptism and membership generally go hand-in-hand in Baptist churches. We regard accountability very highly.

"Soul competence" or "Individual Soul Liberty" is not so much about private interpretation of Scripture; it is more about allowing each person the freedom to believe or not believe without coercion or persecution. That is usually something that refers to those outside the church...we won't persecute or coerce people who don't believe like us. Inside the church, there is an expectation that everyone be in agreement with the local church's articles of faith and polity.

II Peter 1:19-21

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

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[Ave Maria]

Heh, this is pretty interesting. Would I, as a pacifist (meaning that I will not serve in any combatant role in the military but will serve in a non-combatant role) be welcome as a Baptist?

 

[MrJim]

I guess what I was going after was how a believer conducts his/her self as a christian. Whereas baptists (typically) tend to be nationalistic (which can take the form of idolatry) to the point of death the anabaptists/brethren folks I know (most of them-some should be baptists instead ) have a different world view. When nationalism is the center instead of Christ and His church, then the focus of the body becomes blurry. Unbelievers confront very different Christians with very different beliefs when something as large as this presents itself, particularly in wartime.

I will say that the current state of affairs in the anabaptist church is a sad one (small middle ground between the legalistic button-counters and the liberal "anything goes"). I attend a baptist church but look toward the historic anabaptists for some spiritual guidance.

 

[rural_preacher]

Heh, this is pretty interesting. Would I, as a pacifist (meaning that I will not serve in any combatant role in the military but will serve in a non-combatant role) be welcome as a Baptist?

Yes. I'm sure that most any Baptist church would gladly welcome you (or any pacifist). Participation in military service is simply not looked down upon in Baptist churches. No one expects you to serve in the military; that is entirely your choice. Praise God we have an all-volunteer force here in the U.S.

BTW, soldiers (sailors, marines, airmen, etc.) need the Savior too. We will not reach them for Christ unless some of us serve side-by-side with them. But no one should violate their conscience on the matter. If you believe you should not serve, then don't serve. One should not be judged by others based on their decision to serve or not serve in the military.



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[Ave Maria]

Yes. I'm sure that most any Baptist church would gladly welcome you (or any pacifist). Participation in military service is simply not looked down upon in Baptist churches. No one expects you to serve in the military; that is entirely your choice. Praise God we have an all-volunteer force here in the U.S.

BTW, soldiers (sailors, marines, airmen, etc.) need the Savior too. We will not reach them for Christ unless some of us serve side-by-side with them. But no one should violate their conscience on the matter. If you believe you should not serve, then don't serve. One should not be judged by others based on their decision to serve or not serve in the military.



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Well, that's good to know in case I decide to become a Baptist again in the future. But don't worry, I am not judging anyone. I believe it's a personal choice as to whether one joins the military or not and even then within a combatant or non-combatant role. I am just currently opposed to the military because of what I believe to be unjust military action. But that's another story for another time.

 

[MrJim]

Anabaptists don't "look down" upon military service. It is viewed as being outside the will of Christ. (I served in the Marine Corps, so I do have some "insider view" as to how the military works.) WWJD-I'm trying to picture Jesus as a SEAL or maybe Paul as a USMC sniper doing it for the glory of God...

 

[rural_preacher]

Anabaptists don't "look down" upon military service. It is viewed as being outside the will of Christ. (I served in the Marine Corps, so I do have some "insider view" as to how the military works.) WWJD-I'm trying to picture Jesus as a SEAL or maybe Paul as a USMC sniper doing it for the glory of God...

Actually, if Paul wanted to win those snipers to Christ he wouldn't hesitate to become one...

I Corinthians 9...

I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

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Praise God, for the SEAL who is a believer, Jesus is there with them...

Hebrews 13...

God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?”

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[MrJim]

So in that same vein of thought if Paul wants to reach a prostitute he'll become one?

 

[brotherjim]

Anabaptist and Baptist-does anyone think it odd that baptists would be placed into the same group that lists the traditional peace churches (anabaptist/brethren/quaker)? . . . Maybe this has been touched on before, but hey I'm the newbie.

Yes, menno, I too brought this up a couple or 3 months ago when I first discovered this denominational sub-group. I was told--by whom I don't recall--that there were only so many slots available, so some denominations had to be grouped together.

The main difference, Arminianism vs. Calvinism (as a stereotype), is a big one, and so Anabaptist would have maybe been more appropriately added over on the Wesley Parish channel; but perhaps it was God working behind the scenes to lump these two dissimilar denoms. together. In any case, it has been interesting, though at times confusing. But since I have witnessed very few either Anabaptist or, surprisingly, Calvinistic threads here, it's usually not too much of a problem, and is a wonderful way to exercise the Fruits of the Spirit. (It seems all the staunch Calvin Sledges and Armin Hammers stay over on the Theology channels, where it seems more than half the threads are about such.)

brotherjim (an Ana.)

 

[brotherjim]

So in that same vein of thought if Paul wants to reach a prostitute he'll become one?[/QUOTE]
Very witty; appropriate.

But/also, the command for us to imitate Paul, and Paul walking in Love by becoming all things to all men, must of course be balanced, us never forsaking/offending the majority just to appease a minority, for God Loves the majority.

But this brings up the problem in that pacifism is the minority, and by far, and it offends the majority. So we who are, should whenever possible keep such very mature (meat) doctrines to ourselves. It is the only solution, as someone already stated in some context, we who believe the commandments to love enemies and turn the other cheek are to be taken literal and across the board, so for us to do otherwise would be for us sin, and God certainly does not want us who are pacifist to sin for the sake of reaching others (well, actually--; but in any case, we pacifists simply would not be able to do what the military or law enforcement would require).

I now recall the verse commanding us to live at peace with our neighbor, insofar as it is up to us, which is seldom possible when we are walking according to the Spirit and not the flesh, for God never intended for us to be gentle and peaceful according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit if and when such is manifested by the S(s)pirit. "But the Fruit of the Spirit is. . . ." For at other times we are commanded to speak the Word of Truth boldly, which Word, if not watered-down by the flesh, is quite offensive and should result in much persecution as a inevitable result. "Those who live godly in Christ Jesus will. . . ."

I have posted over on the "'Spirit-filled'--charismatic/Pent." channel, a thread entitled "Fruits of the Spirit: Yes/No?," which goes into greater detail and is unfolding wonderfully with many responses/much input--as this here seems to be too far drifting off topic.

Welcome, newbie, brotherjim

 

[icxn]

So in that same vein of thought if Paul wants to reach a prostitute he'll become one?

Of course!

But here's how:

(From the life of St. Serapion)
Once Abba Serapion pasted through a certain Egyptian village and he saw a harlot standing at her house. And the elder said to her: "Wait for me till the evening, for I want to come and stay with you tonight." And she answer and said to him: "Good, Abba." And she made preparations and spread the bed and waited or the elder with-a gift. And in the evening the elder came to her, bringing nothing with him, and he went into-her room and said: "Have you prepare the bed? " She said: "Yes, Abba." And she closed the door so that they were alone. And the elder said to her: "Wait a little, for we have a rule which I must perform first." And the elder began his prayers, going through the Psalter from, the beginning, and after every psalm he made a prayer and asked God that she might repent and be saved. And God heard him. And the woman stood trembling and praying close to the elder; and when the elder had finished the psalms, the woman fell on the ground. The elder then began to read from the apostle, interpreted much from it and so performed his rule of prayer. And the woman was filled with contrition, and realizing that he had come to her not for sin but to save her soul, she fell at his feet, saying: "Do an act of charity, and take me where I can please God." Then the elder brought her to a monastery of virgins and committed her to the care of the superior and said: "Accept this sister and do not lay upon her a yoke and rules like the other sisters, but if she wants anything, give it her; and if she wants to leave, let her go out." And when she had lived in the convent a few days, she said: "I am a sinner, and I wish to eat only every other day. And after a few days more, she said to the abbess of the monastery: "As I have greatly offended God by my sins, do me an act of love and take me into a cell and close it, and through the window give me a little bread, and some work to do." And the abbess obeyed her and did this for her. And in this way she pleased God for the rest of her life.

/end quote

icxn

PS. Hi Jim and btw, I greatly enjoyed your posts on the "Fruits of the Spirit." Very well said.

 

[brotherjim]

. . . Hi Jim . . . and btw, I greatly enjoyed your posts on the "Fruits of the Spirit." . . .

Really?!?!?! Cool. PtL and all glory to Him, of course. Hi to you, my beloved "Mediteranean" (sp?) friend. I must caution you, however, and sincerely so, that you would do better to not publicly acknowledge me this way, as I post the hard things of God and am greatly despised and rejected as a result--to be expected. So I fear you're doing yourself a dis-service (hyph.?) by aligning yourself with me this way. Truly. (But again, I do at times wonder if I suffer a persecution complex--as some others "suspect.")

But you continually amaze me, icxn, and are destroying many preconceived notions I have had about Orthodoxy. How in the world, because my love for you is growing desperately, can I receive as brethren someone who may believe that eternal salvation can be had through some means other than simply receiving from God one Grace after another? Since I do not know Orthodoxy as I perhaps should, please believe my quest is genuine and pure and pleading for understanding. I want so very much to receive you, as you seem to receive me.

Please prayerfully consider beginning a thread somewhere, likely more appropraite than here on this channel, and help me and those like me to understand either nay or yea, how the Protestant can be brethren with the Orthodox--or are you the exception rather that the rule (as is someone, I believe, like Ralph Martin, the Catholic layminister who I also greatly Love and believe is somehow my brother)? Please (though I know you are very busy just now with the holiday). I can pretend I'm at odds with you {-_-} on the thread; a devil's advocate.

Blessings, my dear friend, jim

 

[brotherjim]

Sorry, menno, to take your thread off track, and I sincerely beg your forgiveness and understanding. Thanks and God bless, bj

 

[Crazy Liz]

Maybe we don't disagree on as much as you think.

Every Baptist church I have ever been in requires that a person who is baptized in that church also join the membership of that church. I'm sure there are some Baptist churches that are willing to baptize people without bringing them into the membership, but I would say they are in a very small minority. Baptism and membership generally go hand-in-hand in Baptist churches. We regard accountability very highly.

That is good to hear, although I have never seen a Baptist church like that. I will trust you that they exist. Maybe somewhere they are even a majority. That would be good news.

"Soul competence" or "Individual Soul Liberty" is not so much about private interpretation of Scripture; it is more about allowing each person the freedom to believe or not believe without coercion or persecution. That is usually something that refers to those outside the church...we won't persecute or coerce people who don't believe like us.

Good. I've been having trouble trying to figure out what these terms really mean. Anabaptists opposed all religious coercion from the beginning. I have been fascinated this past quarter to learn that Luther (at least before the Peasants Revolt) opposed religious coercion, as well.

Inside the church, there is an expectation that everyone be in agreement with the local church's articles of faith and polity.

II Peter 1:19-21


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Anabaptists tend, I think, to put a bit less emphasis on agreement, in terms of holding the same opinions on a whole list of things. Quakers, of course, even less so. But Anabaptists tend to have closer connections between congregations. I think this makes a more profound difference than most Baptists realize.