"An order to kill from God...?"

Miss Sera said:

The bible doesn't say it?

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No.

Guess what my mother's defense is when we would get into discussions about witchcraft:

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No offense to your mother but her defense is irrelevant.

The Bible still doesn't say what you're claiming, whether she believes it does or not.

Gee, how am I supposed to interprete it?

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Dittomonkey has already explained this to you in great detail.

dittomonkey911 said:

People forget that God is not only a God of love, but He is also a God of justice. The attributes are mutual, they don't clash. When a people sin, they incur his judgment; and when people incur his judgment, God is patient, but his patience runs out eventually. God will tolerate sin for so long and then God will move in judgment against that sin.

When Sin reaches a certain point, the punishment becomes National rather then individual. (Which is exactly the point where we as a nation are heading today.)

When God destroyed the Canaanites, He did it to preserve his truth among the Israelites. They were like cancer and when cancer exists, the only wise thing to do is to cut it out. And God does that in a preserving act.

The people whom God judged were not "innocent" he pronounced judgement against them, and convicted them.

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Justice? You call that fair treatment of individuals!

I won't believe that, God is better than that. God is better than punishing innocents little ones because others have done wrong.

If Justice is not tempered by love or discernment it becomes no more than revenge.

Killing people without distinguishing to whether they are truly guilty or innocent is not an act of Justice, it is an act of murder and malice.

I concur, Lavis Knight. Very well put.

Justice? You call that fair treatment of individuals!

I won't believe that, God is better than that. God is better than punishing innocents little ones because others have done wrong.

If Justice is not tempered by love or discernment it becomes no more than revenge.

Killing people without distinguishing to whether they are truly guilty or innocent is not an act of Justice, it is an act of murder and malice.

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None of us are innocent. We are all born depraved, enslaved to our sin nature and worthy of death.

Furthermore, the people were guilty, and were adjudicated as guilty. God

It doesn't matter what you as a Human Being think is fair or not. When God commanded the israelites to destroy a people that sinned against him, he did so to protect his people and his society. Those people that sinned against him were to be utterly destroyed because their very presence was like a cancer.

God's absolute holiness and justice required that the cancer be removed.

When God destroyed the Canaanites, He did it to preserve his truth among the Israelites. When cancer exists, the only wise thing to do is to cut it out. And God does that in a preserving act for his people.

Remember that in every case where God ever did punish a wicked people, He always offered to those people salvation. In Malachi, He says, “I’m going to come in and wipe out the land.” But He says, “For those of you who believe in me, you will be mine in the day that I make up my jewels, and I will have a book of remembrance and I’ll write your name in it.”

Before He wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah, what did He do? He preached the truth there. God always gives an opportunity to the righteous or those who are willing to be believers in him before there is ever a judgment. He was willing to spare the city for 10 righteous and moral people, not even that could be found. Many people forget how rampant the wickedness and immorality of these people was.

God is tremendously patient. Tremendously tolerant. Just look at Genesis 15:

Gen 15:13 And He said to Abram, You must surely know that your seed shall be a stranger in a land not theirs, and shall serve them. And they shall afflict them four hundred years.
Gen 15:14 And also I will judge that nation whom they shall serve. And afterward they shall come out with great substance.
Gen 15:15 And you shall go to your fathers in peace. You shall be buried in a good old age.
Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come here again, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

God said, “The Amorites will be here 400 years.” Well, that’s a long time! Four hundred years! Why so long?

God said, “I won't yet destroy the Amorites because their iniquity has not yet run its limits out, where judgment is the only answer.” In other words, God gave the Amorites 400 years in which to get things straightened out, and it wasn’t until that period of time that God would let the Israelites move in. God, in his grace toward the Amorites, kept the Israelites 400 years in slavery just to give the Amorites the same 400 years.

In that period of time, they consummated and filled up their sin so that it was time for God to move in and judge before they infected society and the world to a great degree.


As a result of the fall, all of us deserve death, God in his Grace and Mercy, elected some to be saved before time began. These people he regenerates and saves, through his will and sovereign mercy.

When you say that isn't fair Remember:


Rom 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way?
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;

Wow, how merciful... before time began he knew the fall would happen and let it happen anyways! Then, he picks out some people that will be saved, puts them on Earth... and THEN makes some MORE people whom he knows will burn forever just to see it happen! Wow... I can feel the love from here... wait... hold on a second... nope that was just gas I felt.

I don't understand how killing children because of someone elses misgivings is tolerant or merciful.

During ancient times there have been races of extremely savage and even wicked people. If you cannot believe that, need I remind you of the cannibals and head hunters in Souith America.
When the two men of God visited the city where Lot lived, the majority of the city's men, young and old tried to break into Lot's home and gang rape the two angels. That's how evil some of these civilizations got to, and that is why God decides to execute them.

However, we have lived past the ages of hardness as Jesus said, and he gave us new commandments, because he wants us to prepare for the end days. He commmands us to abandon the works of the flesh, and that is to kill fellow human beings. That is why he commands us to pray for our enemies and love them.

Lavis Knight said:

I don't understand how killing children because of someone elses misgivings is tolerant or merciful.

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In some ancient cultures pedophilism and youth violence was condoned. The chiildren lose their innocence in these cultures.

The chapters where women and children were killed was because of retribution, because Hebrew woman and children were killed and raped.

Miss Sera said:

I've always found this strange. God says "Thou shall not kill," yet he has ordered people throughout the bible to kill. Maybe not directly, but the "law" leaves no alternative. In a children's bible I own it says the following things:

"Put to death any woman who does evil magic."
"Put to death anyone who has sexual relations with an animal."
"Destroy completely any person who makes a sacrifice to any god execpt the Lord."

So you're not allowed to kill, unless God says you can. But some people claim God did tell them to kill their victims. ex. I've heard of people say that the reason they've killed homosexuals, or other such things, is because God told them to, or because it written in the bible. But then we frowned at that, saying we're not supposed to kill. So how do those "laws" that say to kill those people actually work? Or do they not even apply anymore, and if they don't, are we sinning everytime we ignore them?

(Note: this is not a question posed to justify a past, present, or future murder. Just a curiousity.)

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Miss Sera,

This contradiction is one of the biggest reasons why I have come to reject the Bible as "God's word". It is a contradiction.

Yes, there is a difference between killing in self-defense and murder, but the atrocities committed by the Jews was not self-defense. I'll happily provide several references that I have posted many times before to back this up. Killing women and children is not self defense, for example, and David and other ancient Jews did just that, and worse.

This way of thinking has allowed many atrocities to be committed over the centuries. The Inquisitions, the Crusades, and even modern-day killing of abortion doctors and homosexuals. It makes fundamentalist beliefs, whether they be Christian or otherwise, a very dangerous and volatile way of thinking.

dittomonkey911 said:

People forget that God is not only a God of love, but He is also a God of justice. The attributes are mutual, they don't clash. When a people sin, they incur his judgment; and when people incur his judgment, God is patient, but his patience runs out eventually. God will tolerate sin for so long and then God will move in judgment against that sin.

When Sin reaches a certain point, the punishment becomes National rather then individual. (Which is exactly the point where we as a nation are heading today.)

When God destroyed the Canaanites, He did it to preserve his truth among the Israelites. They were like cancer and when cancer exists, the only wise thing to do is to cut it out. And God does that in a preserving act.

The people whom God judged were not "innocent" he pronounced judgement against them, and convicted them.

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Of course God has a soft spot for virgins girls....we can't forget that right?

dittomonkey911 said:

If someone uses deadly force on me, I WILLINGLY use deadly force back in order to stop the threat.

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So much for "turn the other cheek".

dittomonkey911 said:

Murder is the taking of INNOCENT life without cause.

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No, it's not. Where you got that definition from, I've no idea. Murder is simply the UNLAWFUL taking of human life. Whatever the laws of the land are defines murder.

Your claim that murder is the taking of innocent life is particularly absurd given that somewhere later in the thread you maintain that NOBODY is innocent (you said "None of us are innocent. We are all born depraved, enslaved to our sin nature and worthy of death"). So I guess that according to your definition, murder never happens, since nobody's innocent.

The Bellman said:

So much for "turn the other cheek".


No, it's not. Where you got that definition from, I've no idea. Murder is simply the UNLAWFUL taking of human life. Whatever the laws of the land are defines murder.

Your claim that murder is the taking of innocent life is particularly absurd given that somewhere later in the thread you maintain that NOBODY is innocent (you said "None of us are innocent. We are all born depraved, enslaved to our sin nature and worthy of death"). So I guess that according to your definition, murder never happens, since nobody's innocent.

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Wow, excellent points, Bellman. Good to be able to put a face to your "name", BTW.

[quote[So much for "turn the other cheek".[/quote]Christians are not forbidden from Self-Defense, Serving as Law Enforcement Officers, or Serving as Soldiers.

"Turn the Other Cheek" was a reference to insults. A Slap in that time was an insult, not a threat to your life.

Christians are commanded to defend against the unjust taking of a human life. Standing by and allowing a murderer to kill unjustly is contempt for human life.

Remember Jesus said:

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

No, it's not. Where you got that definition from, I've no idea. Murder is simply the UNLAWFUL taking of human life. Whatever the laws of the land are defines murder.

Your claim that murder is the taking of innocent life is particularly absurd given that somewhere later in the thread you maintain that NOBODY is innocent (you said "None of us are innocent. We are all born depraved, enslaved to our sin nature and worthy of death"). So I guess that according to your definition, murder never happens, since nobody's innocent.

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We are all BORN With sin and depraved, BUT:

The elect are pardoned by The Sovereign Grace of Almighty God. Before time began God chose some, to be regenerated and saved. He did this soley of his own mercy and grace.

I must stress that I refer to Innocent here as according to the Laws of God. As I showed, Both Locke and Blackstone (Whose influence on American Law extended well into the 20th Century) agreed that Man's law must in all ways conform to God's Law.

God Defines what is and is not murder.