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An interesting conversation at work...

GrayAngel

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So a couple of days ago, I had interesting encounter. I was at work, and a customer gave me some advice for how I could do my job better. I would have been thankful, if he had stopped there. Instead, he decided to give me a lecture on his philosophy on the world.

"If an employee messes up, whose fault is it?" he asked.

I wasn't sure where he was going with this, so I answered, "The employee?"

"No," he said. "It's always management. Why is this world so screwed up? God is in control. He created everything. It's His fault. There is no God, but that's a different discussion."

So we went from talking about my work to "there is no God." Had I the time to respond, or if I wasn't caught off guard by what he was saying, I might have pointed out a few flaws in his argument.

Most importantly, the man had confused fault with blame. There is a difference. Rape victims, sadly, are often blamed for what happened to them, but was it their fault or the rapists'? The rapists of course.

This guy had made one valid point. If an employee screws up, it will affect how the customer views that company as a whole. So management would take the blame for their employee's mistakes. Sure, it might be possible that management isn't doing a good job of hiring quality employees, but is it really their fault if someone they hire does something they shouldn't? Say I go batcrazy after a rude customer pushes me too far, and I take out my pocketknife and stab them in the temples. Who's fault would it be? Who would be going to jail? Well, me of course.

He also showed a common mistake all people make quite often. He applies his same broken logic on God. Any time something goes wrong, we blame God. Then when things go well for us, we pat ourselves on the back. But who is really at fault for humanity's problems?

Say you're having trouble getting a job. You apply to two locations in three months, get a couple of interviews that you didn't prepare for in advance, and you don't get any of the jobs. Who's fault is it that you're still unemployed? It's yours of course.

Every individual is answerable for his or her own actions. Regardless of where the blame naturally falls, no one is at fault for what another person does.

Second, is our world really so screwed up? I don't think so. When I look at nature--the plants, the animals, the land, the sea, the air, the stars--I don't see something screwed up. I see beauty. Our world is very well put together.

Flowers produce nectar, bees drink the nectar, and bees carry pollen from flower to flower so that the genes from one could be transferred to another. Before the GPS was even thought of, a certain type of pigeon could find its exact position in the world and navigate with incredible accuracy.

But in all of nature, the crowning achievement is none other than mankind. We possess incredible intellect. We have feelings of what's right and what's wrong. We have power over our environment, to an extent. In all of the animal kingdom, no other animal has shown capacity to understand that other people have knowledge separate from their own. Apes can be taught sign language, but they have never asked us what we think.

Humanity is very unique. In the creation story, God stopped at the end of each day to admire His creation and say, "It is good." But only on the sixth day, when He created man, did He say, "It is very good." Humanity is extremely well put together.

Yet, mankind is also the source of most of the world's problems. With all of the power we've been given, we tend to use it to make a lot of bad decisions. Instead of listening to our conscience, we justify our actions and then wonder why the world "is so screwed up."

So, in the end, what do we have to blame God for?
 

jayem

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So, in the end, what do we have to blame God for?

It depends on how you interpret the man's free-will vs. God's sovereignty paradox. Quite a few Bible verses strongly suggest that God has ordained all things. Just a sample off the top of my head:

"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” Eph. 1:11

"The Lord works out everything for his own ends - even the wicked for a day of disaster" Prov. 16:4

"All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" Psalm 139:16

"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord" Prov. 16:33

How often do religious believers claim that everything happens for a reason, or that what man does for harm, God intends for good? If true, isn't it logical to conclude that God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens?

And one more point:

Yet, mankind is also the source of most of the world's problems. With all of the power we've been given, we tend to use it to make a lot of bad decisions.

How would even know if the decisions you make are truly your own, or if God isn't directing your will?
 
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ranunculus

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Second, is our world really so screwed up? I don't think so. When I look at nature--the plants, the animals, the land, the sea, the air, the stars--I don't see something screwed up. I see beauty. Our world is very well put together.

Flowers produce nectar, bees drink the nectar, and bees carry pollen from flower to flower so that the genes from one could be transferred to another. Before the GPS was even thought of, a certain type of pigeon could find its exact position in the world and navigate with incredible accuracy.

Enter the bedbugs

comic2-1625.png
 
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quatona

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So, in the end, what do we have to blame God for?
As you said: "Every individual is answerable for his or her own actions."
Since at the core of your argument was the equation of human-human relations with God-human relations this would have to apply to God, as well.
(And we don´t even have taken into account that God allegedly is the omniscient, omnipotent creator of everything - which puts a whole different complexion on your comparision).
 
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Gadarene

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Oh, I've never denied that if the Biblical account was true that humans would have some responsibility for what occurred in the past, like with the Fall.

It's just that God would still have had most of it.

The problem is getting Christians to admit any of it.
 
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GrayAngel

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Enter the bedbugs

comic2-1625.png

Have you read Genesis 3 lately? Neither the Bible or creationism claim that the world is perfect. When Adam sinned, the whole world was cursed because of it. But despite its problems, our world is still good. That is undeniable. God's craftsmanship is still very much apparent in His creation.
 
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GrayAngel

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It depends on how you interpret the man's free-will vs. God's sovereignty paradox. Quite a few Bible verses strongly suggest that God has ordained all things. Just a sample off the top of my head:

"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” Eph. 1:11

"The Lord works out everything for his own ends - even the wicked for a day of disaster" Prov. 16:4

"All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" Psalm 139:16

"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord" Prov. 16:33

How often do religious believers claim that everything happens for a reason, or that what man does for harm, God intends for good? If true, isn't it logical to conclude that God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens?

Actually, if you knew me very well, you'd know that I am very much a proponent of predestination and determinism. But you forgot one very important verse:

Genesis 50:18-21 - His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. “We are your slaves,” they said.

But Joseph said to them, “Don’t be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. So then, don’t be afraid. I will provide for you and your children.” And he reassured them and spoke kindly to them.


And one more point:

How would even know if the decisions you make are truly your own, or if God isn't directing your will?

You say this as if it's an either/or situation. However, this is not the case. We people do as we please. God does not force us to do anything we don't want to do. However, no one is in control of their own desires. We each have personalities, strengths, and weaknesses that are given to us.

The passage I quoted above speaks of Joseph's brothers doing what their hearts desired. They were angry at their brother, and they sold him into slavery. But God was in control, and He used the evil actions of Joseph's brothers to make good of it.

Shouldn't Joseph's brothers have been held accountable for their actions? They didn't intend for anything good. They were, of course, guilty. But God, who was in control of the situation, had nothing but good intentions.

I think of God as being like a writer. An author can create very evil characters, but it is up to him how the story will end. God is writing our stories, and a happy ending has been promised to us. Evil will fail and will get what it deserves, and every good act will be rewarded.

Revelation 20:11-13 - Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
 
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jayem

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I think of God as being like a writer. An author can create very evil characters, but it is up to him how the story will end. God is writing our stories, and a happy ending has been promised to us. Evil will fail and will get what it deserves, and every good act will be rewarded.

A character has no free will--he can't freely choose his actions. He only does as the author has written. When we step out of the play, we know that Macbeth murdered Duncan, not because of ambition, or his wife's goading, but because Shakespeare devised it. And likewise, if God has decreed all of our stories, then we have not choice but to play our roles as written.
 
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GrayAngel

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A character has no free will--he can't freely choose his actions. He only does as the author has written. When we step out of the play, we know that Macbeth murdered Duncan, not because of ambition, or his wife's goading, but because Shakespeare devised it. And likewise, if God has decreed all of our stories, then we have not choice but to play our roles as written.

A good writer sees his characters as living people. They are real to him and he tries to remain true to the character he created. We are real, but we were designed by God. We do not have the power to act in a way God did not see coming or plan ahead for, but we do what we desire.
 
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jayem

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We do not have the power to act in a way God did not see coming or plan ahead for, but we do what we desire.

So as you see it, we all act according to God's plan. Then isn't it logical to conclude that God is ultimately responsible for the outcomes of our actions?
 
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GrayAngel

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So as you see it, we all act according to God's plan. Then isn't it logical to conclude that God is ultimately responsible for the outcomes of our actions?

On a separate level, yes. Because God is shaping history, I can put my faith in Him that He's working things out for the best. But on another level, each person is responsible for their actions, and they will be treated differently depending on what they do. A law breaker will be fined or jailed, regardless of the fact that their actions were predetermined, as they should be.

The alternative is that God allows everyone into Heaven, no matter who they are. Hitler? Well, God gave you the right personality and circumstances to make you an evil dictator, so no consequences for you. Does that sound good to you?

Free will was never an option in the first place. He can't create a being with free will for the same reason He can't create a rock too big for Him to lift. He is all-powerful, meaning He has power over all things. And being the creator of everything, He's so familiar with the world that He can predict events thousands of years ahead of time.

I wouldn't want to live in the world with free will anyway. That would be a life of chaos, without any sense of direction or promise of a good ending. If God were powerless against our free will, we'd be completely screwed.
 
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ranunculus

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Have you read Genesis 3 lately? Neither the Bible or creationism claim that the world is perfect. When Adam sinned, the whole world was cursed because of it. But despite its problems, our world is still good. That is undeniable. God's craftsmanship is still very much apparent in His creation.


I don't think beauty has any impact on whether you believe in a god or not. If you see beauty that means god did it, if you don't see beauty, god still did it but man screwed it up. There's nothing to falsify the claim god did it.
 
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