An important issue...

gort said:

Yes, I'm serious. If you're going to make claims then you need to back them up. Otherwise, you're using the logical fallacy of poisoning the well. Just telling me to "watch TBN and I'll see 'em" or that you were "talking about people from your old church" still does'nt make your claims valid.

Or maybe you're just gossiping?

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I also know christians like this gort!

Some of them are from my old church and others are just christians that I know from my wifes side of the family and just christians I know in general.

I know for a fact they don't think anything of hurting people but say a swear word and it judgment day come early!

I don't think that either Homebound or I have to back up our claims and for you to ask us to is like accusing us of being liars!

ILoveIsrael said:

Now today I got a PM saying that he or she is thanking me and how since there is no hell, they have sinned and felt so free ect... now I am taking these PMs as sarcasm, but I think there is an issue that should be discussed, that since people hear some of the strong arguments Universalist have that we all will get saved, might confuse some. Some might see this as an excuse to sin, any thoughts on this?

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The only thing that I can say is that if a Christian is so easily swayed back into sin once the "threat" of eternal torment is removed then they do not have a relationship with God in the first place, they only have a fear of hell.

And I would think that any Christian, no matter their doctrinal beliefs, would agree.

angelmom

ILoveIsrael said:

Its not so much that these eternal hellfire believers use their beliefs to sin, but its more of the "God loves us more than you" thing. Lets look at one non Christian who has been more like Jesus than anyone, that is Ghandi, he lived as Christ told us to, and it is that self righteous attitude I notice in fundamentalist.

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I see.

martymonster said:

I also know christians like this gort!

Some of them are from my old church and others are just christians that I know from my wifes side of the family and just christians I know in general.

I know for a fact they don't think anything of hurting people but say a swear word and it judgment day come early!

I don't think that either Homebound or I have to back up our claims and for you to ask us to is like accusing us of being liars!

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No need to get your knickers in a twist. relax, take a deep breath, go outside and see the scenery. My wife tells me the graphics are stupendous.

gort said:

No need to get your knickers in a twist. relax, take a deep breath, go outside and see the scenery. My wife tells me the graphics are stupendous.

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Yeah, but how's the framerate?

martymonster said:

I also know christians like this gort!

Some of them are from my old church and others are just christians that I know from my wifes side of the family and just christians I know in general.

I know for a fact they don't think anything of hurting people but say a swear word and it judgment day come early!

I don't think that either Homebound or I have to back up our claims and for you to ask us to is like accusing us of being liars!

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Exactly, Marty -- you hit it right on the head there. That's exactly it.

angelmom01 said:

The only thing that I can say is that if a Christian is so easily swayed back into sin once the "threat" of eternal torment is removed then they do not have a relationship with God in the first place, they only have a fear of hell.

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Unchallenged.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Do not fear any man, but fear him who can cast your soul into hell.


Should we preach hell fire and eternal damnation? Most certainly. If we truly love the lost, we will preach the Word of God and not water it down.

To not believe that if you die in your sins and will be cast into hell is the deception of the devil.

Fifty years ago, most believed that when a man died, his soul would either go to be with God or be cast into hell.

False religions crept in and has changed this thinking by saying that when a man dies, he ceases to exist until the day of resurrection. So when a man dies, it is like going to sleep. This false doctrine has corrupted many and will claim many in the name of hell.


What deterent is it if there is no punishment? If you examine our judical system today, and look at the leniency of our laws, it is easy to see why this has become a land of lawlessness.


We no longer live under and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Instead, we tap them on the hands and release them back into society, to continue to break the laws. The number of repeat offenders is far greater then those who do not repeat. Our prisons have revolving doors where criminals come and go.


So if there is not deterent, what is there to fear?

ILoveIsrael said:

since people hear some of the strong arguments Universalist have that we all will get saved, might confuse some. Some might see this as an excuse to sin, any thoughts on this?

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I've never met a universalist who considered universalism an excuse to sin.

Indeed, I think it's a sad state if the only reason that non-universalists can find not to sin is the fear of hell and the lust for heaven. In other words, the only reason not to sin is selfishness.

The reason not to sin is because you care about people. You love your fellow man, in your heart. You are greatful for Christ's salvation of mankind.

Universalists are generally respecters of people. We do not want to see others hurt, and cannot bear the idea of anyone tormented for eternity. When one has such compassion for their fellow man, that person is less likely, not more likely, to want to steal from them, or kill them, or hurt our spouses by committing adultery. We care about other people.

That is the reason not to sin. Out of compassion.

Charlie

the fear you are describing is the fear that Love casts out.

because fear involves TORMENT

it would be wise to come to understand the difference between fear of the Lord and the kind of fear that religion has used for centuries to control the masses.

This fear that involves torment is being cast out of a people that are coming to understand how Perfect Love has taken up residense in them and cast that stuff out. It would be good to investigate and ask God what kind of fear
has taken up residence within, the kind that involves torment and must go when HE reveals HIS perfect love or the kind that religion has threatened folks with for years.

kept

Charlie V said:

I've never met a universalist who considered universalism an excuse to sin.

Indeed, I think it's a sad state if the only reason that non-universalists can find not to sin is the fear of hell and the lust for heaven. In other words, the only reason not to sin is selfishness.

The reason not to sin is because you care about people. You love your fellow man, in your heart. You are greatful for Christ's salvation of mankind.

Universalists are generally respecters of people. We do not want to see others hurt, and cannot bear the idea of anyone tormented for eternity. When one has such compassion for their fellow man, that person is less likely, not more likely, to want to steal from them, or kill them, or hurt our spouses by committing adultery. We care about other people.

That is the reason not to sin. Out of compassion.

Charlie

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Rest assured that the non-universalist does not use the fear of hell to keep him from sinning. There is a far greater sorrow than torment of the Lake of Fire involved.

Whether or not the universalist realizes it or not, the message of ultimate reconciliation is one of enablement for the sinner. If convinced of ultimate reconciliation, the sinner will continue to play and pay later.

gort said:

Rest assured that the non-universalist does not use the fear of hell to keep him from sinning. There is a far greater sorrow than torment of the Lake of Fire involved.

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Then why do they create the false argument that universalists have nothing to keep them from sinning?

gort said:

Whether or not the universalist realizes it or not, the message of ultimate reconciliation is one of enablement for the sinner. If convinced of ultimate reconciliation, the sinner will continue to play and pay later.

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That's the false argument. The exact opposite of what you've just said is true.

Whether or not the non-universalist realizes it, the message of universal reconciliation is not one of enablement for the sinner. No one is convinced of ultimate reconciliation without also being convinced of the sad realities that temporal sin cause us here on Earth, and no one understands and accepts universal reconciliation without also being compassionate and loving of the word of Christ, and in that compassion, driven to kindness, and not to sin.

However, if you'd care to defend your statement, can you give me an example of anyone who is a universalist who has, say, been put on trial for committing murder, or who has been arrested for stealing, who used as his defense in a court room the belief in universal reconciliation, or who has simply proclaimed that, they don't care what they did because they believe in universal salvation?

I've known a lot of universalists, and I've never known one I would not trust not to take my life, who I could not trust with my small daughter, or who I could not trust to hold my wallet.

On the other side, I can give you examples of self-proclaimed Christians who were not universalists who have killed and committed a host of wrongful acts, who used their non-universalistic Christian beliefs in defense of the very actions they committed. Plenty of non-universalistic child molestors, including priests, are out there, but I know of no universalist child molestor arrested in the history of universalism. Do you know of one?

This is not to say that non-universalistic Christianity leads one to sin, but rather, that the doctrine of hell apparently is not an effective deterant to sin. The assurance of universal salvation is either an effective deterrant to sin, or is a doctrine which draws the sort of person who is not likely to commit such sin in the first place.

Certainly, I can name a host of historical Universalists -- John Murray, Benjamin Rush (signer of the Declaration of Independance,) John Adams & Thomas Jefferson (our second and third Presidents, both of whom denied belief in eternal punishment in their letters) Abel C. Thomas, etc. None of them, to my knowledge, used universal salvation, say, to defend robbing a store or killing someone, etc.

But, please, I may be wrong. Tell me about a specific universalist who committed a specific sin, and universal salvation was their primary motivator?

Charlie

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I found a few exceptions -- but this doesn't involve sinning, just being arrested for crimes involving living and preaching universalism, but they were crimes that could hardly be called "sins".

Such as the crime is heresy: Preaching Universalism in the first place.

George de Benneville was arrested in France for this crime, avoiding execution by a last minute reprieve from King Louis XV. So if it's a sin to teach universalism, yes, he was guilty as charged, and perhaps some would disagree with the King and support his execution.

Maria Cook, the first female Universalist preacher, was in initinerant preacher until she was arrested in 1813 in New York for the crime of vagrancy. So if it's a sin to be homeless while traveling and preaching the Word of God, then Maria Cook was such a sinner.

Elijah Davis, cousin John Mayo, and Jonathan Streeter were Quaker universalists who were arrested for refusing to report to the Continental Army. So if pacifism and being a consciencious objector to fighting in a war is a sin, they were universalists who were guilty as charged. (They were also guilty of being among those who created the Universalist denomination, building the first meeting house in 1792.)

So, sure, if teaching universalism and being pacifists are sins, then, yes, some universalists have been driven to that sin by their faith, and arrested for it!

Charlie

ILoveIsrael said:

Well I admit to sinning at times.

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Do you defend your sin with your universalism?

Do you believe you would not have committed these sins, if you were not a universalist?

Charlie

ChasClean said:

So, you think that sinning is playing?

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Good question.. honestly, I don't see it. Sin holds no great attraction for me. I can't imagine myself waking up one day and saying, "Gee, wouldn't it be FUN to go out and kill some people, steal some things, go beat up a couple of old ladies and steal their purses."

What is the big thing about sin anyway?

Wow, I just love the feeling of a guilty conscience, and all that running from the police. It's like being in Disneyland.

Honestly, I don't see what the attraction is in the first place. I feel guilty if I pick the wrong words and hurt someone's feelings.

Charlie

ILoveIsrael said:

Well it sort of I guess comforts me, but I have lots of doubt too, I lean towards more of the, I am probably going to hell anyway.

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So, you're not a universalist?

Trust me, God loves you too much to send you to hell.

Let me share with you a little story, copy/pasted from a sermon I read.

There’s an old story about the great early nineteenth century Universalist preacher and theologian Hosea Ballou. I don’t know if it’s factual or apocryphal, but that is of little consequence: it beautifully illustrates a core principle of the theology of universal salvation.

Imagine that Ballou has just finished leading a worship service when a man approaches him. “Brother Ballou, I hope you can help me,” the man says. “I’m gravely concerned about my twenty-year-old son. I tried to raise him with good principles, but he spends most of his nights carousing in the tavern will all kinds of unsavory characters. I’m afraid he’s on the road to Hell.” Ballou is thoughtful for a moment, and then he replies hopefully, “Well, brother, I think I can indeed help you. You and I should go tonight to the neighborhood in which this tavern is located, and outside the door of the tavern we shall build a huge, roaring bonfire. There let us lie in wait, and when your son emerges from the place, we shall seize him and fling him into the flames.” The man is aghast. “Are you mad?” he protests in horror. “I could never do such a thing to my own child!” And Ballou answers, “My dear brother, God couldn’t either.”