An evolutionist, TE, OEC and YEC all walk up to a bar...

That's not a very good illustration of TE views

Calminian said:

Feel free to tell me why. You might even convince me to make some alterations.

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where does it say that the wine appeared to be 5 years old?
This miracle occurred in such a time that Jesus knew that there was no equipment to do as you propose, to test the age. Why dont things happen now so we can test them as you describe?

it is no more then the omphalos problem, AFAIK has no real solution as it is a variant on brains in a vat or last thursdayism.

Calminian said:

Feel free to tell me why. You might even convince me to make some alterations.

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Hi Calminian,

Theistic evolutionists aren't skeptical that miracles happen, and we certainly don't just look to carbon dating to prove everything! We just think that in the case of creation, God used evolution to make stuff. That's really the only difference between a theistic evolutionist and any other creationist .

Peace,
Alchemist

The problem with your story is this: You're assuming that the age of wine is testable, and we can perform a test, and show that it's five years old.

... Well, actually, that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that there's a very clear line of contempt drawn between the Good Character, with whom you identify, and the Bad Characters, who are there to be mocked because we all know how stupid they are.

That's the real problem.

Calminian said:

The second and third scientists were a TE and an OEC. Since they believe in looking for possible natural explanations first

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TEs and OECs do not look for natural explanations first and fully recognize the validity of miracles and the supernatural. They just don't ignore natural evidence just because it may disagree with one possible interpretation of scripture.

seebs said:

The problem with your story is this: You're assuming that the age of wine is testable, and we can perform a test, and show that it's five years old.

... Well, actually, that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that there's a very clear line of contempt drawn between the Good Character, with whom you identify, and the Bad Characters, who are there to be mocked because we all know how stupid they are.

That's the real problem.

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So you are unable to see a parallel between the age of the wine and the age of the earth? And in doing so you shall accuse the OP of contempt and mocking?

I shall explain more below after answering Gold Dragon's statement.

Again, where is the adhereance to not falsly accusing your neighbor? It seems this commandment is so easily and often tossed aside here.

Gold Dragon said:

TEs and OECs do not look for natural explanations first and fully recognize the validity of miracles and the supernatural. They just don't ignore natural evidence just because it may disagree with one possible interpretation of scripture.

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It seems for the many statements here, that theistic evolutionists do look at natural evidence first and then from that decide how to interpret the Bible when it concerns miracles. The odd thing is that I cannot seem to understand from you all - maybe you can help me out here - is why you subject creation to being perceived through interpretation of natural evidence, but yet you don't do the same with Jesus' miracles. Is it because Jesus Himself performed them and so therefore there is no need to? If so, are you aware that God through Jesus created this universe. So it seems to me that you hold Christ to being perceived through interpretation of natural evidence for creation, but not in the miracles of the Gospels. I apologize, but that rather seems to me like picking and choosing.

Now, about the wine issue. I am sure you are all aware that wine tastes its best when it has aged. And this was a common practice for the Jews to make wine and age it.

In John 2, Jesus turns the water into wine. He then tells the servant to take it to the master of the banquet. This man tastes it and calls Jesus, so that he can complement HIm on the great tasting wine. The master of the banquet also says how the other wines there, the choice and the cheaper wines, but the one Jesus made was the best.

One who drinks wine often will know that wine taste better the longer it was aged. Since, Jesus' wine was the best tasting wine of all the wines there, it would have the appearance of age.

I would suppose that if you took wine experts who determine the age of wine, they would say this wine was not just created, but rather has age.

So tell me, how does the statements made here 'God is a liar if this world shows age but is really young' stand up to Jesus making wine.

Is Jesus the liar because He made wine that tastes as if it has aged?

Is Jesus a deceiver because He created wine that tastes as if it has aged?



John 2:8-10
'Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”'

If the post did not prove the OP reasoning i dont know what will. You give a perfect analogy and what do they do. Your wrong you did it wrong, totally exp[lained it away by saying nothing at all. Good OP. Can I use this in the Creation evolution thread.

An important difference not brought out in the OP is that the wine did not come out of bottles marked "Cote de Rhone 1945", nor were there extant receipts in the caterer's possession showing their purchase from a wine merchant in Damascus, who had an audit trail all the way back to a French Chateau.

Once you include those elements, the anology is a bit closer. And then what would a reasonable man conclude?

TEs do not dismiss the idea of miracles. The rest is a domino effect, as your premise is false and everything else is based on a false premise.

Karl - Liberal Backslider said:

An important difference not brought out in the OP is that the wine did not come out of bottles marked "Cote de Rhone 1945", nor were there extant receipts in the caterer's possession showing their purchase from a wine merchant in Damascus, who had an audit trail all the way back to a French Chateau.

Once you include those elements, the anology is a bit closer. And then what would a reasonable man conclude?

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Are you saying the universe is wrapped in a package and explicit, by words written on the universe, says it is X-amount years old?

The wine was created, as was the universe. Neither are explicitly saying when. It is the interpretation of man who claims the world is saying it, when it is not. It is only their interpretation.

SBG said:

So you are unable to see a parallel between the age of the wine and the age of the earth? And in doing so you shall accuse the OP of contempt and mocking?

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I see a parallel, but the key point is, the OP assumes that, if Jesus actually created wine, it would be scientifically testable to be five years old.

As to the mocking... The tone speaks for itself.

Wouldn't a YEC claim Jesus was sinning because He made alcohol for others to consume? Or was it just grape juice?

As to your statement that OEC's look to naturalistic expanations first, I can tell you this one takes the Bible as his authority above all else. What you fail to realize is that you are not defending "God's word" but your interpretation of God's word. The derogatory tone of the OP is most unfortunate, but all too common. We can disagree on how to interpret the Creation accounts and still agree on who Jesus is and what He has done for us.

seebs said:

I see a parallel, but the key point is, the OP assumes that, if Jesus actually created wine, it would be scientifically testable to be five years old.

As to the mocking... The tone speaks for itself.

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Did Jesus create the wine? The Bible says HE did, do you believe it?

If you are calling the Bible in error on this, then just say it. It hasn't stopped you before.

So a wine that tastes better than any other good wine would not have age? It would be just made? And this just made wine would taste better than any aged wine? And the master of the banquet saying it was the best wine, obviously believed it had aged.

So tell me seebs, lets be honest at least. As you say, if Jesus created the wine, and the wine did taste better than all the others as the Bible states, and the master of banquet says as the Bible states, is Jesus a deceiver because He made wine from water that tasted better than aged wine and thus gave the appearance of an aged wine?

Answer this simple question seebs, is Jesus a deceiver if the above and what is written are correct?

Ah, so because you have believed there is mocking, you have made it right in your mind that it was ok to bear false testimony. How do you do that? Where does the Bible back you up on this? Where does Jesus say that if you think someone is rude then be rude back at them?

Did you sin, or were in you the right seebs?

I am becoming rather bothered that some here think they can justify their sins because of what someone else might have done. Nothing has changed. Adam blamed Eve for the sin he commited which he was actually blaming God.

The lack of responsibility for ones actions amongst Christians is rather troublesome.

2Timothy2 said:

Wouldn't a YEC claim Jesus was sinning because He made alcohol for others to consume? Or was it just grape juice?

As to your statement that OEC's look to naturalistic expanations first, I can tell you this one takes the Bible as his authority above all else. What you fail to realize is that you are not defending "God's word" but your interpretation of God's word. The derogatory tone of the OP is most unfortunate, but all too common. We can disagree on how to interpret the Creation accounts and still agree on who Jesus is and what He has done for us.

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Hello 2Timothy2! Where does the Bible state that consuming alchohol is a sin? Or does it say in excess it is sin?

If you think it is a sin, then logically you are also stating the Last Supper was also sinful and accusing Jesus Christ of being sin since He drank from the cup of wine as well.

I would be very careful if I was you to accuse God of commiting sin. This is the sin that cannot be forgiven; attributing the work of the devil to God.

SBG said:

[/color][/font]Hello 2Timothy2! Where does the Bible state that consuming alchohol is a sin? Or does it say in excess it is sin?

If you think it is a sin, then logically you are also stating the Last Supper was also sinful and accusing Jesus Christ of being sin since He drank from the cup of wine as well.

I would be very careful if I was you to accuse God of commiting sin. This is the sin that cannot be forgiven; attributing the work of the devil to God.

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SBG, may I suggest you actually read my post, and not assume I am saying something?

Wouldn't a YEC claim Jesus was sinning because He made alcohol for others to consume?

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I did not say alcohol is evil. I have never said that. As for the rest of your comments, as insulting as the insinuations were, I shall write them off as coming from an obvious misunderstanding of what I posted.

SBG said:

Did Jesus create the wine? The Bible says HE did, do you believe it?

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I assume He did.

So a wine that tastes better than any other good wine would not have age?

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I have no idea whether it would have age or not. But your story presumes that the wine Jesus made could somehow be tested for age, and would seem old.

You run into another danger here: Once you agree that God may have made the universe so that it would look just like an old universe, how can you show that any of our history really happened? Maybe God made the universe on Tuesday, and the Bible is a record of the created history, just like the rocks are a record of the created history of the earth.

So tell me seebs, lets be honest at least. As you say, if Jesus created the wine, and the wine did taste better than all the others as the Bible states, and the master of banquet says as the Bible states, is Jesus a deceiver because He made wine from water that tasted better than aged wine and thus gave the appearance of an aged wine?

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Er, no.

And at this point, I urge you to consider the possibility that your hostility and anger are drowning out any sincere interest you might have in coming to understand how other people are approaching this question. I don't come away from your posts feeling like a brother in Christ wishes to know my thoughts on a question of theology, but like a bunch of tough guys named Guido just worked me over.

Ah, so because you have believed there is mocking, you have made it right in your mind that it was ok to bear false testimony.

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No. I bore no false testimony. The tone is mocking. I didn't say you were intentionally mocking; merely that your clear frustration comes out in the writing.

How do you do that? Where does the Bible back you up on this? Where does Jesus say that if you think someone is rude then be rude back at them?

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It is not my intent to be rude in any way; rather, you posted a piece and asked for comments, and I offered a comment that I believe might help you make your point more clearly.

2Timothy2 said:

SBG, may I suggest you actually read my post, and not assume I am saying something?

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I did add in if's and I apologize. I should have better written what I said that you would have understood I was asking, not assuming.

2Timothy2 said:

I did not say alcohol is evil. I have never said that. As for the rest of your comments, as insulting as the insinuations were, I shall write them off as coming from an obvious misunderstanding of what I posted.

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First, I did not insult you. I said, if this is the path you choose to take, then you must be careful, for it is blasphemy.

I also did not state you said alchohol is evil. You said do yec's claim drinking is a sin. What would be the point in this statement? I had read it as you saying you believed it was. So my apologies for the misunderstanding.

seebs said:

I assume He did.



I have no idea whether it would have age or not. But your story presumes that the wine Jesus made could somehow be tested for age, and would seem old.

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Tell me seebs, did the master of the banquet think the wine was the best, better than the other wines?

When does wine taste is best, after it has aged?

seebs said:

You run into another danger here: Once you agree that God may have made the universe so that it would look just like an old universe, how can you show that any of our history really happened? Maybe God made the universe on Tuesday, and the Bible is a record of the created history, just like the rocks are a record of the created history of the earth.

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I can show you what the Bible says on such matters. Will you take the Bible as truth according to what it says?

seebs said:

Er, no.

And at this point, I urge you to consider the possibility that your hostility and anger are drowning out any sincere interest you might have in coming to understand how other people are approaching this question. I don't come away from your posts feeling like a brother in Christ wishes to know my thoughts on a question of theology, but like a bunch of tough guys named Guido just worked me over.

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It is not anger or hostility. It is a question, you will not answer. To keep from answering it you go off on a tanget.

If the wine tasted as if it had been aged, is Jesus Christ a deceiver?

seebs said:

No. I bore no false testimony. The tone is mocking. I didn't say you were intentionally mocking; merely that your clear frustration comes out in the writing.

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I see. Did you give the author the benefit of the doubt, or was your first response on here accusatory toward the OP?

seebs said:

It is not my intent to be rude in any way; rather, you posted a piece and asked for comments, and I offered a comment that I believe might help you make your point more clearly.

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I am not the OP. Are these your words from your first post in this thread?

seebs said:

Well, actually, that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that there's a very clear line of contempt drawn between the Good Character, with whom you identify, and the Bad Characters, who are there to be mocked because we all know how stupid they are.

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You don't find this to be accusing the OP of his intent? Or do you find what you say here to be giving him the benefit of doubt?

I ask one simple question seebs, can you answer it?

If the wine tasted as if it had been aged, is Jesus Christ a deceiver?

The point is, it's just as true to say that YECs say alcohol is evil (because, hey, there's some verses that could be taken that way) as it is to portray non-YECs in the way the OP's story portrays them; which is to say, it's not actually correct, and reflects presuppositions and biases.