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Secundulus

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War is nothing but the continuation of politics with the admixture of other means. —Karl von Clausewitz, On War
Inc Merriam-Webster, The Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Quotations., "A Merriam-Webster."; "Quotables from Notables"--Cover.; Includes Index. (Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, 1992), 437.

The first act of politics is diplomacy. But diplomacy is useless when one side will not deal in good faith.

Hamas and the Palestinians have repeatedly stated their aims and continually demonstrate their dishonesty and their lust for blood.

What recourse is left?
Is Israel to uproot and leave?
Is Israel to simply commit mass suicide?
Is is Israel to simply allow constant bombing and rocket attacks on their civil populace?

Does Israel not have the right to defend itself?

What option is left except to act to remove the enemy's will to fight? (The modern euphemism for war)

And FWIW, whatever little sympathy I might once have had for the Islamic cause was cleansed from my soul on 9-11.
 
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CaDan

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Fascinating that you write this in response to a paragraph that describes BEHAVIOR.

Well, here's the thing. You could just ague on the basis of justice or sociology to reach your point. The problem is, you toss in some additional rhetoric by calling people "Amalekites." On the basis of that bit of name-calling, you argue for decimation of a population.

Of course, in the interest of not advocating full on genocide, you dance around it by being increasingly unclear about who you would kill. First it is just terrorists. Then it is those who advocate terrorism. Then it is their mothers. That is the problem with creating the idea of an evil group--once you start killing those who are clearly in the group, it is very hard to stop the killing.
 
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CaDan

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Ah, von Clausewitz! The flower of his genius bore its deadly fruit in the Somme.
 
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Ramona

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Secundulus

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Ah, von Clausewitz! The flower of his genius bore its deadly fruit in the Somme.
The problem with your idealism is that the situation as it now exists can hardly be called peace.

And whatever you think of WWI, what Clausewitz said is true. War is simply the means to a political end.
 
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CaDan

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The problem with your idealism is that the situation as it now exists can hardly be called peace.

And whatever you think of WWI, what Clausewitz said is true. War is simply the means to a political end.

Of course it is true. Societies' methods of war reflect their political and economic systems. Industrial societies wage industrial war. The prime example of industrial war is the Somme. Or Dresden.

Post-industrial war? No one knows quite how that will look.
 
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GeratTzedek

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Ger, if I may ask, what made you convert? I promise I'm not baiting you, but I've been curious for a long time.
I don't think I myself entirely understand why I am converting. It is something that comes from far deeper within me than my reasoning mind. I can tell you some things, but they will actually be EFFECTS of whatever is driving me to become a Jew. In reality they are not the primary cause.

I resonate with the Jewish people, more than any other people, certainly more than my Celtic ethnicity, more even than my own American culture, and certainly more than Christian culture. There have been other cultures in my life I have found strangely, enexplicably attractive, such as the Lakota, or the Chinese. I have spent oodles of time studying these cultures, immersing myself in them, making friends with those who are a part of those cultures. But in the end, I was still me. Only with the Jews has it gone farther -- it is not simply an affinity, not simply a fascination, but an IDENTIFICATION, even though I'm not a Jew. It began very young, especially in my choices of which psalms to memorize, ie "If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth if I prefer not Jerusalem among my chief joys."

Part of it is simply the way I was raised. My father may have been a pastor, and my mother head of the sunday school, but we were Torah observant (and this was in the days before Messianic Judaism or any of its ideas). I found out a year ago that my great great grandmother was a Jew, and my suspicion is that my family simply functioned like a Converso family -- we remembered what to do long after we forgot why we did it.

The transformation began in EARNEST about 15 years ago when I had a repetitive nightmare that I was a Jew. If I went back to sleep, I would go back into the same terrifying dream. It went on night after night for quite some time, and I believe that in some way, it changed me. After, I find I simply cannot speak of the holocaust or listen to talk about it (casually OR seriously) the way I once did.

I spent about 15 years "running away," by which I mean that I became convinced that conversion was not for me, and to avoid the angst, it was necessary to avoid Orthodox Jews, and everything about Orthodoxy.

A year ago in February, I walked into a Messianic shul which was unusual. It was a Hashivenu congregation, meaning it was mostly Jews, and obligatory Torah observance for Jews was preached. The liturgy was Orthodox liturgy. To hear Hebrew prayers sung again, to see the Torah scrolls... basically that was all it took to wake up everything I had tried so hard to put to sleep. within a few months, I was "double dipping," meaning I attended the MJ congregation, but was also attending an Orthodox shul. I had started observing Shabbat again.

And that's when I discovered great great grandmother.

For years I had told the Hebrew Catholics I counciled, "If *I* were to find out that, like you, I were of Hebrew ancestry, I would immediately become observant and do all I can to resolve my issues of status with the Jewish community. And so, now, I'm doing exactly what I said I would.

And a big part of it was simply living within Christian community for 46 years, and being an advocate for Israel, and feeling the tension grow. Sigh* I'm just SO DONE WITH THAT. There are others to carry on that work, which IS valuable. But it's like knocking my forehead against a brick wall most of the time, and SUCH A HEADACHE. There were so many occasions where there was this freaky deaky thing when *I* would be sounding like the Jew, and the Jewish-Christian sounding like the goy. like, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???? It felt insane.

Basically, the time to leave had come.
 
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GeratTzedek

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Labels are useful. All of language is labeling of ideas, actions, things, people. There is nothing wrong with calling a Nazi a Nazi. I have stated that we are speaking of "Amalekites" in the metaphorical sense of destoyers of Israel who target innocents. If the shoe fits, they wear it.

I have brought up the Amalekite issue because this is a religious forum, and the Biblical MANDATE to irradicate the Amalekites is something that is emotionally difficult for people, including me.

IOW, this is not a simple case of ad-hominem name calling. My posts have been very careful to refer to behavior over and over and over.

I hope that helps to bring better understanding.

Those who advocate terrorism, or who assist it in any way, are terrorists. I put them all in the same basket.

I have NOT, however, put the "mothers" of terrorists into the same basket. The Bible certainly does. I have discussed WHY it would do that. But I have always stopped short of advocating the death of those not terrorists, but simply part of a terrorist culture.

My concern for myself is this: am I being wishy washy in my obedience to Torah for stopping short?

But PUHLEEZE don't accuse me of placing, ie., all Palestinians on par with Hamas. I have not done so.
 
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CaDan

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Thank you for explaining. I think I understand your dilemma better now.

It is difficult to fight monsters (and those who would kill innocents to make a political statement are monstrous) without turning into monsters ourselves. While on the rare occasions I venture into Middle Eastern political arguments I gripe about some of the State of Israel's tactics, I recognize that it does show restraint. If the State of Israel really wanted to kill all the Palestinians, they would be dead by now. I think the government of Israel understands quite well the dangers of fighting monsters.
 
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mikkyo

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And FWIW, whatever little sympathy I might once have had for the Islamic cause was cleansed from my soul on 9-11.

Tragically your country was at one time so obsessed with communism for the purpose of maintaining economic imperialism. Maybe if America just minded their own business and not be obsessed with being a superpower that they would have let the Soviets simply kill off Bin Laden along with the Taleban. Instead, both Pakistan and US gave the Taleban the green light to self-govern knowing they were fundamentalists. Why did they not stop this? Well the answer is obvious. America thought it would be more beneficial to stop the Soviets in Afghanistan which was in the end a childish game over peanuts

Just imagine if Bin Laden and the Taleban were killed by the Soviets. Just imagine. There would be no 9-11. You yourself would probably have Muslim friends. In fact, I bet you would not waste your time in this forum.

In any case, if Afghanistan was so important at that time, why is Tibet of no concern to the US? It's simple, American has no political interest in Tibet.
 
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mikkyo

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In Scripture, we read about the Amelakites, that people which targeted Israel for destruction, and who (rather than engaging in appropriate warfar) picked off the weak, the sick, the children, and the old.

Wait a minute now. Didn't the Jews kill women, children, and old people during their war conquests. How can you point the finger at the Amelkites when the bible clearly says the Jews had done the same thing? That makes no sense. I suggest you come up with a better premise.
 
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Futuwwa

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GeratTzedek

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Sorry. Laying in wait to pick off the weak, the sick the old the children falling behind... was never something Israel did with any people. Very very very few people in history fight in that manner. The Amalekites did. The Israelites did not. Hamas does, Israel does not.

further, as I've stated, there was only (1) ONE, uno, einz, instance that Israel looked to kill every single last person of that people, and that was the Amelakites themselves, and even then, Israel screwed up and didn't follow G-d's directive.
 
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GeratTzedek

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What does ANY of that have to do with the issue at hand? None of it excuses terrorism. None.
 
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GeratTzedek

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Thanks CaDan. I have no problem with those who might gripe about Israel's policies, so long as they acknowledge the restraint shown, and do not put Israel's actions on par with terrorism. Isn't there ALWAYS room for improvement? And there is nothing wrong with discussing alternative ideas for accomplishing the same goal.
 
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Rasta

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Seems pretty hypocritical to me. They targeted the sick the weak and the children. That is so wrong. Let's show them what's right by killing their men, women, children, weak, elderly, and their livestock.
 
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mikkyo

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Sorry. Laying in wait to pick off the weak, the sick the old the children falling behind... was never something Israel did with any people.

And how is this worse than Israelis who killed women, children, and elderly during times of war? It is common sense.

further, as I've stated, there was only (1) ONE, uno, einz, instance that Israel looked to kill every single last person of that people.

Are you sure this the only instance? I can give you a handful of instances, but I will start with this one:

Ezekial 9:5-7, “And to the others he said in my hearing, Go ye through the city after him, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity; 6slay utterly the old man, the young man and the virgin, and little children and women; but come not near any man upon whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary.”

If you need me to teach you your bible, then just ask.
 
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