Am I to be taken?

“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, AN UNHOLY THING, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” ” —Hebrews 10:29

Many ministers have been deceived by John MacArthur, because he is doctrinally correct in most areas. Unfortunately, MacArthur is WRONG on salvation and the blood of Christ. If a man is wrong on salvation, then he is wrong on everything. MacArthur is a 5 point Calvinist, teaching predestination and limited atonement. This explains his Calvinistic views on Lordship Salvation and the perseverance of the saints in order to be saved. The Bible condemns Calvinism in all its tenets.

BrandonLewis said:

I was raised Methodist, though I no longer agree with that church, and I've dealt with my own sins and troubles to this day since I decided to become a Christian, although I chose to do it for the wrong reason. I love God and I have a never quenched thirst for Jesus and the Holy Ghost to reside within me and change my heart. Is this alone with Holy Spirit residing within me? Or will I have a moment in which I am finally taken completely and wholly by the Holy Ghost? I don't feel born-again and I've never had that moment where I was taken by the Holy Ghost.

Click to expand...

Have you ever read the small booklet "Steps to Christ"??
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/sc/sc.asp
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/sc/sc.asp

in Christ,

Bob

MacArthur is WRONG on salvation and the blood of Christ

Click to expand...

He is wrong on the blood of Christ. I'm not sure, but I think he has recanted of his earlier view on the blood. I don't believe everything MacArthur believes but he is one of the best bible teachers I know of.

teaching predestination and limited atonement

Click to expand...

Read Ephesians 1:3-14 and Romans 8 and 9 and tell me that predestination is not true. MacArthur teaches ACTUAL atonement, Arminians teach limited atonement; most of them believe that Christ's atonement is limited only to sins committed before you were saved, that it was limited to us being able to persevere in our own strength, and limited in that it's not a real atonement at all until sinful man freely chooses to accept it.

No, the bible teaches that Christ fully atoned for the sins of his people, dying on the cross as a propitiation in his blood for our sins (Romans 3:25). It also says that we were chosen in him from before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4). It also says that those he called he predestined, those he predestined he justified, and those he justified he glorified (Romans 8:28-30). It is an unbroken chain from being chosen by God to being glorified. This was all made possible by the real atoning work of Christ, without which we would all be sinners in the hands of an angry God.

Lordship Salvation

Click to expand...

You mean the biblical idea that a sinner must repent? The biblical truth that Christ is LORD and not just savior? Yeah, quite the heresy to think you must embrace Jesus as he is, that is, Lord.

perseverance of the saints in order to be saved

Click to expand...

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints teaches that perseverance is necessary for final salvation, and that all true saints of God will persevere because we are kept not by our own strength but by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5). This doctrine is absolutely biblical, and if you deny this doctrine, you throw into complete disarray all other facets of salvation. There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6), he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13), and all who are born of God overcome (1 John 5:4).

The Bible condemns Calvinism in all its tenets.

Click to expand...

No. The real issue is this; the bible teaches both predestination and human responsibility and accountability. The human mind does not know how to reconcile these two truths. This has led many to outright deny predestination, or at least sovereign predestination, in favor of some unbiblical notion of a human 'free will' that can thwart God's sovereign rule.

I know that the bible says that God chose who would be saved from before the foundation of the world. I also know that the bible says that whosoever will come may come. I do not try to reconcile these truths to fit the demands of my human reason, I cannot claim to know the mind of God. If you attempt to synthesize these truths into some logical construct you will in the process destroy both. The secret things belong to God (Deuteronomy 29:29).

Oss

ALoveDivine said:

He is wrong on the blood of Christ. I'm not sure, but I think he has recanted of his earlier view on the blood. I don't believe everything MacArthubelieves but he is one of the best bible teachers I know of.


Read Ephesians 1:3-14 and Romans 8 and 9 and tell me that predestination is not true. MacArthur teaches ACTUAL atonement, Arminians teach limited atonement; most of them believe that Christ's atonement is limited only to sins committed before you were saved, that it was limited to us being able to persevere in our own strength, and limited in that it's not a real atonement at all until sinful man freely chooses to accept it.

No, the bible teaches that Christ fully atoned for the sins of his people, dying on the cross as a propitiation in his blood for our sins (Romans 3:25). It also says that we were chosen in him from before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4). It also says that those he called he predestined, those he predestined he justified, and those he justified he glorified (Romans 8:28-30). It is an unbroken chain from being chosen by God to being glorified. This was all made possible by the real atoning work of Christ, without which we would all be sinners in the hands of an angry God.


You mean the biblical idea that a sinner must repent? The biblical truth that Christ is LORD and not just savior? Yeah, quite the heresy to think you must embrace Jesus as he is, that is, Lord.


The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints teaches that perseverance is necessary for final salvation, and that all true saints of God will persevere because we are kept not by our own strength but by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5). This doctrine is absolutely biblical, and if you deny this doctrine, you throw into complete disarray all other facets of salvation. There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6), he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13), and all who are born of God overcome (1 John 5:4).

No. The real issue is this; the bible teaches both predestination and human responsibility and accountability. The human mind does not know how to reconcile these two truths. This has led many to outright deny predestination, or at least sovereign predestination, in favor of some unbiblical notion of a human 'free will' that can thwart God's sovereign rule.

I know that the bible says that God chose who would be saved from before the foundation of the world. I also know that the bible says that whosoever will come may come. I do not try to reconcile these truths to fit the demands of my human reason, I cannot claim to know the mind of God. If you attempt to synthesize these truths into some logical construct you will in the process destroy both. The secret things belong to God (Deuteronomy 29:29).

Click to expand...

Well this is a debate that could go longer than we want to invest. But on the atonement issue he appeared to change his view in his study bible, but he managed to add it back in other commentary . I simply cannot consider him a good teacher because the blood is not a minor fault in teaching. Predestination, eternal salvation, gifts are debatable. I completely agree with you on the mind of God, he has allowed us to understand as much as he has given the knowlage for which is just a speck compared to his knowlage. That brings to my mind the last chapters of Job.

BrandonLewis said:

I've read in the Bible before of those great masses of people who would receive the Holy Ghost, begin speaking in tongues, and forever changed. I've also heard testimony from people of feeling God instantaneously change their hearts and the Holy Spirit enter their bodies, and since that day they've remained changed Born-Again Christians.

I was raised Methodist, though I no longer agree with that church, and I've dealt with my own sins and troubles to this day since I decided to become a Christian, although I chose to do it for the wrong reason. I love God and I have a never quenched thirst for Jesus and the Holy Ghost to reside within me and change my heart. Is this alone with Holy Spirit residing within me? Or will I have a moment in which I am finally taken completely and wholly by the Holy Ghost? I don't feel born-again and I've never had that moment where I was taken by the Holy Ghost.

I know that I should probably ask my pastor, but I'm in the middle of transitioning between my parents' Methodist church and a Pentecostal. Thanks for answering, and may God bless you.

Click to expand...

The devil tries to lie and deceive us whenever he gets the opportunity. Reject his lies. Keep your focus on Jesus and His finished work at the cross. Rest in His peace, trusting in Him.

John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.</SPAN>
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,</SPAN>
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.</SPAN>
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

ALoveDivine said in post 44:

Read Ephesians 1:3-14 and Romans 8 and 9 and tell me that predestination is not true.

Click to expand...

It is true. The elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) & predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-11, 2 Thes. 2:13), before they were born (Rom. 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Rom. 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8, 1 Pet. 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Rom. 3:9-12), & so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus & the gospel & be initially saved (1 Cor. 15:1-4, Jn. 20:31, 1 Jn. 5:13) through their own will (Rom. 9:16, Jn. 1:13, 6:65) or through their own intellect (1 Cor. 1:18-2:16). Unsaved people can't possibly understand the gospel (1 Cor. 2:14, 1:18) because only initially saved people, who've received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Cor. 2:11-16). The nonelect can't possibly ever believe in Jesus & the gospel & be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (Jn. 8:42-47, 10:26, Mt. 13:38-42), for the ability to believe in Jesus & the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Eph. 2:8, Jn. 6:65, 1 Cor. 3:5b, Rom. 12:3b, Heb. 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Rom. 10:17, Acts 13:48, 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Tim. 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent & acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Cor. 4:4, 2 Tim. 2:25-26).

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints teaches that perseverance is necessary for final salvation, and that all true saints of God will persevere because we are kept not by our own strength but by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5).

Click to expand...

1 Pet. 1:5 means saved people are guarded ("kept") by the power of God "through" their faith. But the Bible gives no assurance saved people will choose to continue in the faith to the end, & not at some point wrongly employ their free will to depart from the faith, to commit apostasy (Lk. 8:13, 1 Tim. 4:1, 2 Thes. 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12b).

Also, 1 Pet. 1:5 refers to the "salvation ready to be revealed in the last time", i.e. ultimate salvation, as opposed to initial (current) salvation. Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Heb. 3:6,12,14, Col. 1:23).

Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring saved people are robots. For if saved people can't possibly choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring a Christian can have no present assurance he's truly saved. For if a Christian who doesn't persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance he's truly saved, for no Christian can know if he'll persevere to the end. Down the road he could fail to persevere, & so end up showing he was only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Cor. 15:1-4, Jn. 20:31) can know with perfect assurance he's presently saved (1 Jn. 5:13, 1 Cor. 15:1-4) if when he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 Jn. 3:6) & confessed them to God (1 Jn. 1:9). And he can be sure as a saved person that he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Rom. 8:28-39), which means obeying him (1 Jn. 5:3, Jn. 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime (sometime subsequent to his initial repentance), even if he fails & commits sin 70 times 7 times in a single day (Mt. 18:21-22, Lk. 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every sin & confesses it to God, he'll be completely forgiven (1 Jn. 1:9). He'll lose his salvation in the end only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Heb. 10:26-29, 1 Cor. 9:27, Lk. 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Mt. 25:26,30, Jn. 15:2a, Rom. 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12).

ALoveDivine said in post 44:

There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), . . .

Click to expand...

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1, KJV, Textus Receptus).

Rom. 8:1's latter half states the condition for its 1st half. If the latter half isn't done, the 1st half doesn't apply (Rom. 8:13, 1 Cor. 9:27, Heb. 10:26-29).

. . . he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6), . . .

Click to expand...

Philip. 1:6 does mean God will complete the work he's begun in saved people. But other passages show he'll do this only if they continue to cooperate with him & work along with him (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 5:9, Col. 1:29, Philip. 2:12, 3:12-14), & don't wrongly employ their free will to, e.g., become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Mt. 25:26,30, Jn. 15:2a, Rom. 2:6-8).

. . . all who are born of God overcome (1 John 5:4).

Click to expand...

1 Jn. 5:4-5 shows that believers can presently be overcomers, but it doesn't give any assurance that every believer will overcome to the end (Mt. 24:9-13, Heb. 3:6,12,14, Rev. 2:26, Heb. 6:11-12).

Any saved person can ultimately have his name blotted out of the book of life, he can ultimately lose his salvation, if he doesn't overcome to the end (Rev. 3:5, 2:26, Heb. 6:11-12, 3:6,12,14, Mt. 24:9-13).

Rev. 3:5, 1 Jn. 5:4-5, 2:13-14, & 4:4 don't say a saved person can't ever have his name blotted out of the book of life. For those verses don't give any assurance that every saved person will overcome to the end. All the 1 John verses give assurance of is that believers can presently be overcomers, and all Rev. 3:5 gives assurance of is that those believers who do overcome to the end won't have their names blotted out of the book of life.

An example of saved people "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) (Rev. 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Rev. 15:2) to the end is found later in Rev. 15:2, which refers to saved people who will be willing to be killed by the coming Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Christians (Rev. 13:7-10). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist & Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Rev. 12:11). But it's also possible for Christians to fail to "overcome", & so in the end to lose their salvation (Rev. 3:5), if they're fearful (Rev. 21:7-8) of being tortured or killed (Mt. 10:28, Rev. 2:10) to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus & the gospel, to commit apostasy (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6), in order to keep from getting tortured & killed (Mk. 8:35-38, 2 Tim. 2:12, Mt. 24:9-13, 13:21, Lk. 8:13).