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You write clearly, it makes a nice change.Well if you are, I’m right there with you. I’ve been offering the same prayer for over a year now. I know how you feel (if you’re like me on this, maybe you’re not).
You want a sign from God. You’re finding the Bible to be a bit confusing and have nowhere else to turn other than man’s interpretation of the Bible and the idea of a Holy Spirit that’s difficult to distinguish from our own thoughts. You want to actually here the voice (or some type of sign that can’t be written off to coincidence) in the same way the biblical prophets, mystics and the NDE people claim.
Certainly the Bible offers reasons you won’t get such a sign. Jesus makes a quote at some point saying he will not give a sign but defers to the sign of Jonah (but it could be argued he was only talking to his immediate audience- an adulterous generation). And “thou shalt not test…” could be an indirect indication that you’re sinning.
But, as is often the case, the Bible offers counter evidence:
Malachi 3:10 – God flat out says to go ahead and test him.
And it could be argued that it’s through miracles/signs that God/Jesus prove themselves:
When an imprisoned John the Baptist wanted to be sure Jesus was the messiah, Jesus sent his messenger back to John with a list of miracles.
In Duetoronomy 11:1 thru 7 it could be argued that God did not expect his laws to be obeyed by those who did not witness his miracles. He basically says, “hey, you guys saw the miracles so you’re in the know, you’re children did not so I’m not really referring to them..”
I also believe that at some point in the Bible there’s a passage where Jesus offers a higher praise to those who believe without having seen the miracles that his immediate audience witnessed.
The Bible is full of miracles—parting seas, the voice of God, burning bushes, walking on water, the resurrection…..
Where would our faith be without the miracles?
We have reports in this day and age of such miracles/revelations. Sister Maria Faustina H. Kowalska wrote a whole diary full of her conversations with and visions of God. Julian of Norwich is another. Mother Theresa was inspired to do her work via the voice of God she heard on a train ride. And then there’s all of the NDE reports.
Scizophrenia and hallucinations could certainly be an explanation for this, and with the NDE’s you can tell that some of them are just flat out phony apparently to sell a book or to garner 15 minutes of fame. (But then, if you actually did see or hear a spirit, wouldn’t that by definition have to be considered a hallucination?)
But even if these explanations were eliminated, none of us are willing to accept these revelations in the same way we accept reports of angels, lucid dreams, and the voice of God in the Bible. A Bible which was written over 2000 years ago and has been translated and retranslated. It puzzles me why we should believe that all miracles end with the last page of the Bible.
So while I would suggest that it’s a “big ask” for some type of unmistakable sign, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable request. And Jesus says you can ask God for anything and he'll give it to you. So I’m gonna keep asking.
Couple of caveat’s, though. I think Jesus at some point also says that even if he produced a sign, it would not be enough to cure any doubts.
I also consider the “careful what you ask for” aspect. Such a sign might be too much to handle and freak me out (LOL).
Heh-heh. "The Gospel according to Raymond". 'Dats a pretty good answer, actually.Actually it is from "The Gospel according to Raymond"
Eventually one must become Doers of the Word and not hearers only.... History will remain a mystery until is becomes your-story.....after which, you too can begin writing your book...
Until then, we must remain interpreters of other peoples experiences and writings.
Somewhere along this thread I said I should be careful what I ask for because I might be freaked out by a miracle. Sounds like your visions were scary/disturbing. I'd make the guess it's good you had these experiences, but to do so I'd have to assume you'd be taking these visions as a sign to clean up your life. But I don't know anything about your life, so....You write clearly, it makes a nice change.
I’ve always been really sceptical about people who say they ‘hear from The Lord’. As if they’re so special, that it’s happening every moment. The Lord only spoke to Abraham a few times!
Over the last twenty odd years, I’ve met loads of false believers, so simply didn’t know what, or who to believe anymore. I made a conscious decision to start trying to trust in The Lord, only (a constant battle for me), and reading The Bible, at least a chapter, every day.
People will say I’m cuckoo, but I don’t care...about five years ago, i had four visions. Over a short time period. They happened Just as I woke up, in the mornings. I’ve had a few others since, but not sure what they mean. these four were my first, and they spoke volumes.
1. I was dangling over the pit of hell, full of bodies, about to be dropped in.
2. Jesus on all fours, being scourged.
I could only see His back, full of cuts. Each lash was another of my sins.
3. The galaxy. (The message being, Magnify The Lord?)
4. A city. Like a Mediterranean city, An aerial view, and at a distance.
I also had a really disturbing dream, just prior to the visions, that I was in an awful standing with The Lord. In fact, basically, He ‘never knew me’.
Whoah, Whoah, wait a minute, Raymond. I thought of the 'million dollar' thing first. So I'm kinda thinkin' I should be in on this million dollar hand out. I can give you my mailing address when you're ready. Or better yet, I can give you my direct deposit router number thingy.I love to give....so I have no problem sharing. It would be a little more rewarding for you to discover that your Father will give you your desires....and you can go to Him directly. But I guess getting an easy Milll from man is not bad either....I find no fault in it.
They were systematic warnings, of what I need to do to be saved.Somewhere along this thread I said I should be careful what I ask for because I might be freaked out by a miracle. Sounds like your visions were scary/disturbing. I'd make the guess it's good you had these experiences, but to do so I'd have to assume you'd be taking these visions as a sign to clean up your life. But I don't know anything about your life, so....
Have you attached any meaning to your visions or are they just kind of a mystery to you?
Ah, Ok. Makes sense. I had to go back and review your visions, but yes, I see what you mean.They were systematic warnings, of what I need to do to be saved.
Accept Jesus’ payment and magnify The Lord
Sorry, @St_Worm2 got dibs on the one mill......There would be little value in doing this twice in the same forum. But He will only get one mill.....If you know how to ask....you can have the world... So I think what you have is Greater.Whoah, Whoah, wait a minute, Raymond. I thought of the 'million dollar' thing first. So I'm kinda thinkin' I should be in on this million dollar hand out. I can give you my mailing address when you're ready. Or better yet, I can give you my direct deposit router number thingy.
(...)
1. I was dangling over the pit of hell, full of bodies, about to be dropped in.
2. Jesus on all fours, being scourged.
I could only see His back, full of cuts. Each lash was another of my sins.
3. The galaxy. (The message being, Magnify The Lord?)
4. A city. Like a Mediterranean city, An aerial view, and at a distance.
I also had a really disturbing dream, just prior to the visions, that I was in an awful standing with The Lord. In fact, basically, He ‘never knew me’.
And to live a holy life, I would say, from reading vision 1 and 2, and the "I never knew you" part.They were systematic warnings, of what I need to do to be saved.
Accept Jesus’ payment and magnify The Lord
Am I sinning by praying to Jesus over and over.To help me go out of body?Or to help me by sending me a lucid dream?
Why do you believe it is difficult to do? Have you ever tried it to determined the difficult? And have you not read the apostles account of leaving the body or being anywhere in spirit?Has it never occurred to you to ask why God hasn't made you such that you can leave your body whenever you wish (without killing yourself first, I mean)? If God thought it was good for you to be able to do so, surely He would not have made it so difficult to achieve. Do you read anywhere in the Bible that you should seek to venture outside of your body while still living? I don't. Why is that, do you think?
Thankyou. For actually telling the truth. Living a holy life is the only message I see when I read The Bible. I don’t see any excuse for sin. I have the sin of idolatry. An e-cig. I shook it, but went back again. Also, gluttony and hatred in my heart. I’ve had no other confirmation since that dream and visions, apart from when I stopped giving in to the idol quite recently. I received an assurance of salvation-I don’t have that now.And to live a holy life, I would say, from reading vision 1 and 2, and the "I never knew you" part.
At least, that's for sure the main message I would take from it if I had had them. "If you continue in your sin, you will go to hell"; "this is what your sins are doing to the Lord".
I'm not attacking you in any means, by the way! But I just hoped the answer you gave was not all you took from it. And if so, then I hope this makes you to think. The road is so, so narrow.
I once had a disturbing dream as well. I had asked God to please let me know if I would be ready to go with Him if the rapture were to come right now. Guess what? I had a dream that the rapture came and the answer was basically "not yet". I now know of at least one serious sin that I was less aware of by then (idolatry in the form of being addicted to my phone; seems innocent to us but God does not share His glory and sin is sin; but by the grace of God I am overcoming).
Praise the Lord for His grace and patience, to give His children heads up to adjust their ways.
Why do you believe it is difficult to do?
Have you ever tried it to determined the difficult?
And have you not read the apostles account of leaving the body or being anywhere in spirit?
Perhaps the fact we aren't all leaving our bodies whenever we want is a clue, eh?
Most people who give strong opinions on subject, have training in or have at least attempted the ideas they are giving advice about. Forgive me for suggesting that you could have experience in the subject you are advising against.Why would I?
No. Do tell. I'm pretty sure what they experienced and what you're promoting are two very different things.
Ic, does it also mind that, since not everyone are good at playing instruments or sports, that it is difficult for those that actually practice and can do those well? Is is impossible for this to come easy to some people even though there are many who find it difficult.
Most people who give strong opinions on subject, have training in or have at least attempted the ideas they are giving advice about. Forgive me for suggesting that you could have experience in the subject you are advising against.
Why tell if you are sure, without any experience, that you are correct? Seems like a waste of time.
There are a great many people worldwide who play musical instruments at varying degrees of skill. Multi-millions, perhaps. Children are even taught to play musical instruments in school. And the Bible refers to music and musicians repeatedly.
But where are the classes in leaving one's body, if it is as simple a thing, as common a thing, as playing a musical instrument?
Why aren't there "Leaving the Body" clubs at schools like there are Drama clubs, and Chess clubs?
Where are the multi-millions of people learning to leave their bodies at will?
And why is there no teaching whatever in the Bible that Christians ought to learn to leave their bodies, that such an activity is a common and learnable skill that all born-again believers should develop?
Should I use illicit drugs and have promiscuous, adulterous sex so I can speak more authoritatively against such things? Did Jesus do this? Did any of the apostles?
Do you know what specious reasoning is?
I know what I don't see in Scripture, having studied it now for a good, long time.
You're the one making the positive assertion about "out-of-body" experiences, so reason dictates that you bear the obligation for justifying your assertion. It's not up to me to do this for you.
I am a musician, and I mostly only find other good musicians at places where live music is played, or online. Outside of that, none.....and most are amazed that instruments can be played without looking. Even those who are taught in school to play, sometimes get amazed when there is one who plays without training and without the ability to read music.
So yes, you can be trained to do it at any age....there are very few who can do it very well or easily.... And no one should try to hinder another from doing it because "there arent many people doing it." Same for music and leaving the body.
You should have some experience before giving more than unlearned opinions.
Since music is too easy to assume expertise in......lets go with doctors. There are a minority of expert physicians.......Not too many of them.....compared to the general population...and not too many going into school to become one, for various reasons. Would this warrant telling another that they shouldn't do it either because not a lot of people are doing it?
Of course there are classes, although I would not recommend any... Have you looked for any, or is this another opinion without experience?
Why do you believe that this could be found without looking for it? Where do you expect to see this advertised?
Do you have experience using drugs and engaging in adultery? Do you know of anyone else who have been negatively affected by any of the two? If not, you should not be the one telling others not to do it.....For you know nothing about it.
But, if you have seen or experienced the negative effects of drugs, you can share your experience to help others. Otherwise, there is no fault in stating opinions as opinions.
It is when we speak as an authority on subjects we have no experience in, that we go astray.
Have you ever heard of "ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth?" I can not gain much by becoming an expert reader of the Word. I must graduate to becoming a doer as well.
It you read a little closer, you will see that I have said nothing for or against these experiences. I've only spoken again the hinderances thrown in the way by those with no experience in the matter.....
The "I don't do it, so you shouldn't either," crowd.
As you stated, these things are not common....and this is for a reason. Spiritual knowledge is like a pearl that should not be cast away to be trampled on.
These are experiences one is grateful for......not something that leads to bragging and boastfulness.
Asking God to perform occult services for you is pretty cheeky to say the least.Am I sinning by praying to Jesus over and over.To help me go out of body?Or to help me by sending me a lucid dream?
I find no fault in anything you have said or believe. Thanks for the conversation.This is quite beside my point.
Again, this ignores my point which is that, if out-of-body practices were perfectly natural and normal to human experience, they would be a much more commonly done thing.
This is, well, a bizarre, irrational remark, making no more sense than to say to someone, "You should cut off your own head before you offer unlearned opinions about the guillotine."
Still not a workable parallel. Again, numbers erode your argument. While there aren't as many doctors as musicians, there are certainly more doctors than out-of-body practitioners. Far more, I'd wager. And where are the out-of-body institutes? There are schools of medicine all around the world but I know of no parallel system of schools for out-of-body training. Which suggests how occult - or, at least, arcane - the practice is.
You might pay closer attention to the question mark at the end of my sentence to which you're answering here. It signals that a question is being asked, not an opinion given.
Answer my question. Where are the millions of people learning to leave their bodies at will? If it's such a do-able, natural thing, why isn't everybody doing it? More importantly, why isn't such a practice ever encouraged of Christians in Scripture?
The lack of thought in this set of remarks is astonishing! Under your thinking, one could not tell a murderer to stop murdering someone because one has not murdered anyone oneself. I could not object to someone raping my wife because I am not myself a rapist! Such thinking is utterly and obviously devoid of actual moral sense or rationality. Yikes.
Have you ever heard of making assumptions about others from a position of utter ignorance? Like you're doing here.
Why would you do this if you weren't in some measure in favor of the practice? Certainly, one who was opposed to it would not take such a stance.
Pfft. What a load of baloney. You are doing to me exactly what you protest in others who oppose the out-of-body stuff.
My reasoning for my opposition to out-of-body practices has nothing whatever to do with what I do or don't do, but, as I've pointed out now a few times, with what is prescribed in Scripture. About spiritual practices, the Bible is exhaustive in its remarks. Why no teaching of out-of-body rituals or procedures? Why no urging of such an obviously spiritual thing upon believers?
Which "pearls" are found in the word of God, the "textbook" for all Christian doctrine and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17), not borrowed from occult, pagan religions.
Uh huh.
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