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There is much discussion on what It means to be saved. The question is Am I saved if I don't observe the Sabbath? Do you have any scripture to back up your idea? I can't debate here. So I can't argue, but may have some additional questions.
bugkiller
There is much discussion on what It means to be saved. The question is Am I saved if I don't observe the Sabbath? Do you have any scripture to back up your idea? I can't debate here. So I can't argue, but may have some additional questions.
bugkiller
Just so people don't think the bug man's questions are not being answered.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7465877/#post54682181
Perhaps you don't understand the answer. No dancing here.
The answer is complete double-speak. You first say no one knows and the law doesn't save, then you go on and on about how imperative Sabbath-keeping is. Dancing. What am I missing?
Yes I have heard this often and agree with the way you have discussed the division of the ten commandments. But I have a problem with immutable statement. The first thing I find out about the sabbath is that there was a progression of requirements laid down for observance. Then there is this verse Hoaea 2:11 that says the sabbath will cease. I have been told that it was her (Israel's) sabbaths that will cease. My problem is in finding where her sabbaths are different than the one in the 4th commandment. I have asked for this on several occasions to SDA folks in GT with no answer. The word cease in Hosea is the same word rested in Gen 2:2, 3. That word is shabat a single b and a verb. The word for sabbath is shabbat always a noun. Notice the doubble b. Funny thing is a Jewess or Messianic argued with meover this very issue and provided some other transliterated word also showing a difference in the two. The difference is she showed Hebrew transliterated word and I showed an English transliterated word.Ok thanks for posting that.
For Bugkiller,
The law of God (10 commandments) is eternal, immutable and indivisible because it's the foundation of the government of God.
The first 4 are our duty to God, the last 6 are our duty to man. None of is optional. If the 10 commandments are not applicable to NT christians, does it mean I can commit murder, adultery, and worship idols?
By Christ's death, the ceremonial laws are done away because they pointed to Christ. But the ten commandments are never done away with.
Where do you get this idea? My bible says from one sabbath to another in verse 23. I can not find any phrase or similar phrase; on the sabbath in the chapter. My question is how does from...to become on? I do not find in my dictionary any definition of from or to as meaning on. So do you have a translation that does? Please quote it.Notice Isaiah 66 tells us the redeemed with worship God in heaven on Sabbath. Jesus Himself told the disciples in Matt 24 that He prays that their flight from the city (applies for both the 70AD and last days) be not on the sabbath day. That shows the sabbath is binding for the NT christians.
Thanks for permission.Actually Bugkiller, you can ask questions and discuss in the discussion zone.
Yes I have heard this often and agree with the way you have discussed the division of the ten commandments. But I have a problem with immutable statement. The first thing I find out about the sabbath is that there was a progression of requirements laid down for observance. Then there is this verse Hoaea 2:11 that says the sabbath will cease. I have been told that it was her (Israel's) sabbaths that will cease. My problem is in finding where her sabbaths are different than the one in the 4th commandment. I have asked for this on several occasions to SDA folks in GT with no answer. The word cease in Hosea is the same word rested in Gen 2:2, 3. That word is shabat a single b and a verb. The word for sabbath is shabbat always a noun. Notice the doubble b. Funny thing is a Jewess or Messianic argued with meover this very issue and provided some other transliterated word also showing a difference in the two. The difference is she showed Hebrew transliterated word and I showed an English transliterated word.
My bible is written the same way, it says from one new moon to another, from one sabbath to another.Now back to the problem of immutable. How can this be when God speaks through His prophet that the sabbath will cease? Where do you get this idea? My bible says from one sabbath to another in verse 23. I can not find any phrase or similar phrase; on the sabbath in the chapter. My question is how does from...to become on? I do not find in my dictionary any definition of from or to as meaning on. So do you have a translation that does? Please quote it.Thanks for permission.
bugkiller
Thank you. Are you SDA? You faith icon says a general Christian. I agree with your statement. All the people who have made statements to this effect are not SDA to my knowledge. If you are SDA you would be the first to so admit.Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
The sabbaths here is the weekly sabbath.
I am fully aware of what you said above.Besides the daily (tammid) continual service, there are three occasions recorded in the bible where offerings were also made: feast days (annual sabbaths), new moons and (weekly) sabbath.
If you do a word search on "feast new moon sabbath", you get 7 hits from the OT. And every instance where the feast days, new moon, and sabbaths are mentioned, it's mentioned together with the offerings and sacrifices.
This was the reason for the mirth (joy) because the offerings took away the sins and the guilt of sins.
I am sorry but I can not make any connection to the sabbath in what you presented above. Unless of course you wish to relate that sacrifices were apart of the sabbath requirements. I do not think it has anything to do with the passing of the sabbath in Hosea 2:11.Hebrews 10
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Paul stated in the past the offerings relieved the conscience of sins (vs 2). Here he argued the cease of the offerings and the ceremonial law and implored the new Jewish Christians to look to Christ's heavenly ministry for the relief from sin.
I amsorry but I can not connect any thing you say in the above quote remotely related to the sabbath.The 70 weeks prophecy pin-points Christ's ministry on earth and His death would end all offerings and sacrifices.
Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I am confused here because this is not a typical SDA response. Are you saying that the ceremony does not matter and or the keeping of the sabbath does not matter as well? I found it very humorous that I was told today that this verse mean that eating and drinking also were done away with if the sabbath was. I have been told that I can not laugh - people take it as a slur and attack. Thanks to PC talk requirements.Paul also talked about it the subject in Colossians 2:16
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
It no longer matters for the NT Christians because of Christ's sacrifice, the eating and drinking and things to do written in the ordinances of ceremony and Levitical law in connection with a holy day (feast days), the new moon or the weekly sabbath.
Now that sounds very SDA. Excuse me but where do you find mirth (denotes pleasure to me in all the sources I find any definition) to be sacrifices? I find mirth to be part of the list of thing that will cease. I do not see any exception for the sabbath or anyother thing in that list. If there is can you show it? BTW I do think the sacrifices stopped.That's what Hosea 2:11 is talking about, the offerings and sacrifices that produced the feeling of joy and relief would cease, not the new moon nor the weekly sabbath. Just as the new moons will continue to occur on monthly basis, the weekly sabbaths will still be once a week. But the offerings and the sacrifices as defined in the Levitical law would cease because Christ's sacrifice superseded them.
That is refreshing I was beginning to think only mine read that way. The funny thing is my SDA neighbor's only read that way when we were both looking at it.My bible is written the same way, it says from one new moon to another, from one sabbath to another.
Once again I ask how do you get on the sabbath from the words from one sabbath to another?Again the new moons, weekly sabbath and feast days are the days of convocation. It simply states there still will be monthly worships on the new moon and weekly worships on the sabbath in heaven.
ThanksFeel free to post your questions and exchange ideas in the Discussion Zone. There would have been lively discussions (as in the past) had the critics of Adventism not abused it by trying to preach to us their beliefs and just being disagreeable.
Yes. I consider myself a Christian first. No redeemed in heaven will still have a denominational label.Thank you. Are you SDA? You faith icon says a general Christian. I agree with your statement. All the people who have made statements to this effect are not SDA to my knowledge. If you are SDA you would be the first to so admit. I am fully aware of what you said above.
I'm trying to say that Hosea 2:11 wasn't talking about ceasing of the sabbath itself, but the ceremonies (offerings, sacrifices...) connected to the sabbath (and feast days, new moons).I am sorry but I can not make any connection to the sabbath in what you presented above. Unless of course you wish to relate that sacrifices were apart of the sabbath requirements. I do not think it has anything to do with the passing of the sabbath in Hosea 2:11.
I am sorry but I can not connect any thing you say in the above quote remotely related to the sabbath.
The Greek word Sabbaton in Col 2:16 is the same as those for the weekly sabbath. There is no getting around of it.I am confused here because this is not a typical SDA response. Are you saying that the ceremony does not matter and or the keeping of the sabbath does not matter as well? I found it very humorous that I was told today that this verse mean that eating and drinking also were done away with if the sabbath was. I have been told that I can not laugh - people take it as a slur and attack. Thanks to PC talk requirements.
I didn't say mirth is sacrifice. Mirth is joy or a feeling of relief produced by making offerings(sacrifices). The penitents are relieved of sin and the guilt of sin after the sin offering.Now that sounds very SDA. Excuse me but where do you find mirth (denotes pleasure to me in all the sources I find any definition) to be sacrifices? I find mirth to be part of the list of thing that will cease.
The sacrifices and the levitical system ceased because they pointed to the reality of Jesus Christ. The sabbath is not ceremonial. It strictly commemorates the creation from the commandment itself. Therefore the sabbath can not cease as long as God's creation exists.I do not see any exception for the sabbath or anyother thing in that list. If there is can you show it? BTW I do think the sacrifices stopped.
I think it would have read quite differently if it were read 'from one Sunday to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me'. Wouldn't it? So that testifies the perpetuality of the sabbath, Exodus 31:16.That is refreshing I was beginning to think only mine read that way. The funny thing is my SDA neighbor's only read that way when we were both looking at it. Once again I ask how do you get on the sabbath from the words from one sabbath to another?
Thanks
Thank you for letting me know without doubt your position.Yes. I consider myself a Christian first. No redeemed in heaven will still have a denominational label.
I could find no mention or implied mention about sacrifice except idolatry in the first 13 verses of Hosea 2. I do understand your are saying joy because of releif due to release from sins. I do not find that so associated. Do you have a scripture relating sacrifice and the exceeding joy noted by the word mirth?I'm trying to say that Hosea 2:11 wasn't talking about ceasing of the sabbath itself, but the ceremonies (offerings, sacrifices...) connected to the sabbath (and feast days, new moons).
Thank you for this admission. You are the first in in ten years that so admit.The Greek word Sabbaton in Col 2:16 is the same as those for the weekly sabbath. There is no getting around of it.
I am sorry I can not find sacrifice as listed in Hosea and Col and two other locations that escape me at the moment. If I remember correctly there are 4 references that mention all three, annual, monthly and weekly. None of which mention sacrifice.Eight times in the bible, the feast days (holy days), new moons and sabbaths are mentioned. Seven times in OT, once in NT in Col 2:16. The recurring theme in these 8 instances is the offerings/sacrifices. Paul was proposing the sabbath does not matter, but the eating, drinking and other ceremonies (defined in Levitical law) related to the feast days, new moons and sabbath do not matter. There is nothing said about eating and drinking in the sabbath commandment.
If I am not mistaken sacrifices continued until the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Whops, what happened to Deut 5:15? Any celebration is ceremomy. Any worship is ceremony. Worship is not apart of the sabbath in Ex 16 or 20. The Israelites were only commanded to worship 3 times a year. Not all Israelites or males worshipped every sabbath. All worship was done at the Temple. The order of the synagogue was not worship but more like class. When the synagogue was established the Israelite was not able to sacrifice which would constitute worship. See Moses request to Pharoh. I think that sacrifice was always associated with worship by the patriachs.I didn't say mirth is sacrifice. Mirth is joy or a feeling of relief produced by making offerings(sacrifices). The penitents are relieved of sin and the guilt of sin after the sin offering.
The sacrifices and the levitical system ceased because they pointed to the reality of Jesus Christ. The sabbath is not ceremonial. It strictly commemorates the creation from the commandment itself. Therefore the sabbath can not cease as long as God's creation exists.
I don't think so because from to is a measurement. In this case time. The word Sunday did not exist in Isaiah's day. In Jesus' day the days were called something more like the day after the sabbath, the second, third, fourth, fifth on the way to the sabbath, preperation day and the sabbath day. Thus only two days really had names. Other than that all days were called by a number.I think it would have read quite differently if it were read 'from one Sunday to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me'. Wouldn't it? So that testifies the perpetuality of the sabbath, Exodus 31:16.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7465877-2/#post54688508[/quote
[/url]If the SDA house was not so divided there is a need for two different boards I would have not posted on both.
Yes that decision was up to the owners of the site. It was done at the continued request as a simple solution to a problem.If I recall correctly it was someone on the outside who decided to split us up.
Say Onthe DL did you forget me over here? I really would like to have a response, please.Thank you for letting me know without doubt your position. I could find no mention or implied mention about sacrifice except idolatry in the first 13 verses of Hosea 2. I do understand your are saying joy because of releif due to release from sins. I do not find that so associated. Do you have a scripture relating sacrifice and the exceeding joy noted by the word mirth?
Thank you for this admission. You are the first in in ten years that so admit. I am sorry I can not find sacrifice as listed in Hosea and Col and two other locations that escape me at the moment. If I remember correctly there are 4 references that mention all three, annual, monthly and weekly. None of which mention sacrifice. If I am not mistaken sacrifices continued until the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Whops, what happened to Deut 5:15? Any celebration is ceremomy. Any worship is ceremony. Worship is not apart of the sabbath in Ex 16 or 20. The Israelites were only commanded to worship 3 times a year. Not all Israelites or males worshipped every sabbath. All worship was done at the Temple. The order of the synagogue was not worship but more like class. When the synagogue was established the Israelite was not able to sacrifice which would constitute worship. See Moses request to Pharoh. I think that sacrifice was always associated with worship by the patriachs.
I don't think so because from to is a measurement. In this case time. The word Sunday did not exist in Isaiah's day. In Jesus' day the days were called something more like the day after the sabbath, the second, third, fourth, fifth on the way to the sabbath, preperation day and the sabbath day. Thus only two days really had names. Other than that all days were called by a number.
bugkiller
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