Are you talking about Nazi Germany, where the invasion and persecution of Jewish lands forced a situation of abandoning the home country?
I kind of need more detail.
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Are you talking about Nazi Germany, where the invasion and persecution of Jewish lands forced a situation of abandoning the home country?The bible biased? Then you have no idea. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have the same foundation. The bible is most of that foundation. So how is the bible biased towards christians?
Also, I challenge you to present another country that has been destroyed and it inhabitants scattered across the globe, and then re established. After all this time humanity has been on this earth, it has never happened.
Sure, countries have bounced back before. But never after it's inhabitants were scattered across the earth by invading empires.
Are you talking about Nazi Germany, where the invasion and persecution of Jewish lands forced a situation of abandoning the home country?
I kind of need more detail.
Originally Posted by I-can-see
I have mentioned just a few examples of the proof. There are many more proofs of the bible, and of Gods existence, and of Jesus birth and resurrection.
Yes I understand that the bible supports your views of God. You follow the bible. In terms of validity the bible doesn't hold much weight for supporting itself with it's own argument. Clearly I can claim that the bible is biased toward the Christian religion. I think this view is valid.
Ok, I thought you were refering to the bible; I don't think there's any proof for the existence of God though. Unless you know of some, I think neither of can demonstrate God is really exists.The proof I was speaking of is not what I found in the bible.
So the Jewish community were heavily persecuted and now they have enough freedom to resettle.
Ok, I thought you were refering to the bible; I don't think there's any proof for the existence of God though. Unless you know of some, I think neither of can demonstrate God is really exists.
undoing said:So the Jewish community were heavily persecuted and now they have enough freedom to resettle.
Does the bible say they would be scattered for around 3000 years and then come back to the same land again?Yes, and for nearly 3000 years. All of which was predicted beforehand. The prophets KNEW that Israel was going to go down soon, and become scattered across the earth. That was in a time of prosperity mine you. They also NEW that Israel would come back again AFTER being scattered across the globe for over close to 3000 years. This has NEVER happened for any country in HISTORY. Yet it was predicted by the prophets AND it happened just as they spoke.
What goes around comes around does not work when it comes to countries destructions.
I need to disagree on the point that the prophets weren't believed. It might have been the case (should they have existed) that those predictions weren't accepted in mainstream or by the head of the state, or king of the time, or pope, etc; At some point though, those messages were accepted and put in the bible, after this everyone who follows it would probably be subject to the self fullfilling prophesy lol.The prophets did not just think of these predictions out of the blue. They were not scholars, and for the most part they were rejected by the people they spoke to. No one believed them when they said Israel would be destroyed, and re-established. Yet not people believe, because their words have come true, and they always claimed that their words were only what God told them to write down, and nothing more.
But no one believed them in their day. People only believed the prophets AFTER 100% of their words came true. Prophets of the old testament have a 0% fail rate when it comes to their predictions. Something that NO scientist can claim today.
I need to disagree on the point that the prophets weren't believed. It might have been the case (should they have existed) that those predictions weren't accepted in mainstream or by the head of the state, or king of the time, or pope, etc; At some point though, those messages were accepted and put in the bible, after this everyone who follows it would probably be subject to the self fullfilling prophesy lol.
Does the bible say they would be scattered for around 3000 years and then come back to the same land again?
Also, I mentioned before that such behaviour could be explained by the influence those predictions have on such followers behaviour.
It's a sad situation between to different denominations. One relentlessly seeking absolute truth and administering a personal brand of justice against another denomination who accepted and appreciated what they believed and held that faith was equally important, if not more.The Jewish people (same people who believe in the prophets today) tried to kill every single one of the prophets. They also performed hate crimes against them as well. If that is not disbelief, then I do not know what is. The Jewish people needed proof, and if you didn't prove you were from God, and you claimed to be...then you were as good as dead. Over time though, the Jewish people saw that the words of the prophets were true to the letter.
So what you're saying is that 3000 years can't equal the translation of time and time and a half unless you make up an odd number. It sounds outlandish and vague. In one sense the circumstances made the prediction probable and left room for an empty numerical figure (apparently only God can know), while on the other you have real life historical circumstances which look consistent with the prophesy. Is it a choice to look at it as though the prophesy is true or untrue, I suppose it could be. I could accept the answer that the future had been correctly predicted and that by extension God played a part in it, true; or, being me and seeing that it is inconsistent in some respect, that the time isn't even defined so the prediction only seems (to me) to be claiming "The Jews will leave (and consequently) will spread about then (however long it takes) come back again.The bible does not use 3000 years as the translation. They use, a time and time and a half. I think that as about 2500 years, but I am not familiar as to what a time is. Also, the Jewish people tried numerous times to reclaim their land, and each time it failed. The Romans crushed the Jews over and over, as did every empire that took over. Then, when they give up on going back into their land, something happens to put them back in. The Holocaust. The Holocaust was a terrible event, however it DID lead to the restoration of the country of Israel.
Who was it that gave the Jewish people their country back?I-can-see said:This time the Jewish people did not even TRY to get their country back. It was GIVEN back to them. This also has NEVER happened in the history of the world with any other peoples. To be scattered, killed off in genocide, then reunited in the land that was taken from them thousands of years ago. By 1948 the Jewish people were SO scattered there is NO WAY they would have gotten their county back on their own! Then it happens.
So is the Australian armed forces. And it's also a well known fact that history is always told by the victor. I also think it's in bad taste to boast of such victories as there's only a "bad" side when the leaders make a declaration.I-can-see said:Also, God said he would fight for Israel. Did you know Israel remains undefeated since it has been reformed? EVERY SINGLE middle eastern country invaded Israel the DAY AFTER the Jewish people were put back in Israel, and they were unable to defeat them! The trained armies of the middle east were unable to defeat a bunch of refugees, and holocaust victims! The Jewish people had not training in the art of war...and they defeated more then 5 countries armies! They beat the Armies of Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Lebanon.
I appreciate your thorough satisfaction, I think such a victorious record is admirable. If one day your army does fall, lets say it could happen, what example would you take from the bible to explain it, or is there already a vague generalisation in place to account for that if and when it occurs??I-can-see said:They did that WITHOUT the help of the UN or the USA, or any other country! Not only did they defend themselves against the attack, BUT they expanded the territory that they had! Again, these were a bunch of refugees. If that is not proof, then I dunno WHAT is.
When you perfectly understand that no sin will satisfy you the way that God can will you no longer be 'sided with satan.'
Pure760 said:When you perfectly understand that no sin will satisfy you the way that God can will you no longer be 'sided with satan.'
Let me ask hypothetically. If I adhere to what I believe to be good and just. If I refuse to commit sinful or other negative actions and offer help to others when they need it, and so on, would you still consider me to be "sided with Satan"?That's it in a nut shell--AMEN!
ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
Who was it that gave the Jewish people their country back?
You mentioned that there's no way they got their country back on their own. I'm wondering if Christians gave the country back, other followers of the bible?
.So what you're saying is that 3000 years can't equal the translation of time and time and a half unless you make up an odd number. It sounds outlandish and vague. In one sense the circumstances made the prediction probable and left room for an empty numerical figure (apparently only God can know), while on the other you have real life historical circumstances which look consistent with the prophesy. Is it a choice to look at it as though the prophesy is true or untrue, I suppose it could be. I could accept the answer that the future had been correctly predicted and that by extension God played a part in it, true; or, being me and seeing that it is inconsistent in some respect, that the time isn't even defined so the prediction only seems (to me) to be claiming "The Jews will leave (and consequently) will spread about then (however long it takes) come back again
So is the Australian armed forces. And it's also a well known fact that history is always told by the victor. I also think it's in bad taste to boast of such victories as there's only a "bad" side when the leaders make a declaration.
I appreciate your thorough satisfaction, I think such a victorious record is admirable. If one day your army does fall, lets say it could happen, what example would you take from the bible to explain it, or is there already a vague generalisation in place to account for that if and when it occurs??
So the Christians and the Jews were in direct conflict. There were some prophets, who weren't accepted as such, professing the Jews would be forced to leave, be away for any amount time before returning. These prophesies end up being printed in the bible. Now a Christian nation/president gives the Jews back "their" land and in doing so legitimates the prophets claims which are printed in the bible.Yes, it was the Christian president of the United states who had decided to place the Jews back into their land. However, the Christians also left the Jews to defent themselves against the wrath of all the Muslim counties in the area. Also, God works through human beings.
Then the prophets would be out by half a time. I don't know how that time is substantiated, it's less concerning than the overall message: A nation (whom we don't "like") must be forced from their land if they are to leave; when they have been removed from their home, they will have nowhere [conqued and divided], and be forced to free roam (as everywhere has someone occupying it - or - is undeveloped maybe; after some time and then some more time they will return here again (being Christian they might be welcome). I dare say many lands even in feudal times seen this sort of land over throw - land regaining situation.I-can-see said:Well, a time is thought be be a thousand years.
Are there any reasons besides having God on your side that you think could be contributing to such success? I wonder if this idea you hold is actually true. I wonder if the border remains at a fixed place how you can say you "win" every day. Are you saying that the victories are daily? How would you know that your side didn't account for more casualties in any given day? It's almost ludicrous to think of the nievety of such claims. Take Hitler's army for example, he had everything he needed to rule the world but being human he made some serious mistakes and lost. His doctine was a load of rubbishola, and his methods were cruel and heartless yet his rulership went unquestioned. To think what the world would be like had he achieved his goals. I wonder if the world would be run by a desendant to him. You sound very patriotic, you also sound very much influenced by the idea that God is "winning" your battle, more than you seem to be attributing toward your people who are fighting in it. My friend, I wish you well in this area, I hope you will let go of such ideas and come to, as you say, "love your neighbour as yourself".I-can-see said:Ah, but the difference between Australia and newly formed Israel is that Australia HAS an army trained and ready to go. Also, Australia is not sharing borders with its opponents, not are its oppenents within the very neighborhoods of its country.
You sound like your world is in a bad state of affairs. I'm sorry you have to suffer the constant struggle of war in your home land[sup]?[/sup], it must be very difficult. I'm not a proponent to war. I hate that which lives are lost for and it tears me up inside that good hearted men die in it, I respect them for their efforts, even for the outcome but not for what they were apart of. I can't help but wonder if this idea about the world coming to fight Israel is another self fullfilling prophesy in progress.I-can-see said:Well, in the bible, Israel is going to hit some tough spots. All the nations of the world are going to rise up, gather its armie, and attack Israel. When this happens Israel is going to be losing the battle, but as Israel is on its final legs God himself will step in to defend Israel. He will defeat the nations of the world. This final battle is know as Armageddon, because the battle will take place in the plains of Meggido.
MY DEAR BROTHER,Let me ask hypothetically. If I adhere to what I believe to be good and just. If I refuse to commit sinful or other negative actions and offer help to others when they need it, and so on, would you still consider me to be "sided with Satan"?
I believe you're correct on a number of points. One, that what is according to God's wishes (if he exists) aren't 100% knowable. I think I do what is right, if that is basically the same as what God HIMSELF would consider good, you nor I can know with any certainty. What I do know is that I can do my best to be myself, and apapt my behaviour to an ever changing world in a way I believe is moral and good.MY DEAR BROTHER,
In all honesty, i don't know about all this "sided with Satan" stuff. i do know our Lord stated that "Those who are not for us are against us." Exactly what this means--especially in your particular case--i can't say and, because of the magnitude of the importance of the question, won't even try to guess.
Let me point out, however, that your willful separation from God through your denial of His very existence makes it patently impossible for you to determine what, exactly, are "sinful or other negative actions" in God's eyes--He being, of course, the One who determines these things. His is the criteria by which we must live and by which we will be judged, not some half-baked sense of morality or blurred and distorted world view we invent for ourselves.
i know (at least i think) that you mean well, but you are constitutionally incapable, on your own, of doing the "right thing" or, for that matter, even determining what that "right thing" is. This lack has eternal consequences.
ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
MY BROTHER,I believe you're correct on a number of points. One, that what is according to God's wishes (if he exists) aren't 100% knowable.
Of course you do--as did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, abortion doctors who murder babies and those who murder abortion doctors for murdering babies, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Osama bin Laden, and members of The Flat Earth Society.I think I do what is right,
Point being that the "myself" you are trying to be is a sinful, falled, deluded, and misguided human being, just like the rest of us. Without God, we are just a very large herd of self-destructive animals on the verge of extinction. As Paul puts it, "Their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools."(Romans 1:21-22)if that is basically the same as what God HIMSELF would consider good, you nor I can know with any certainty. What I do know is that I can do my best to be myself,
The only way our lives can work--LIVING as opposed to mere animal existence--is to NOT adapt ourselves "to an ever-changing world" but to adapt ourselves to guidance of our unchanging Abba. "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."(Mark 13:31 (ASV)and apapt my behaviour to an ever changing world in a way I believe is moral and good.
My dear brother, i have lived most of my life under the shadow of the "what if syndrome." It is a spiritual killer! Now i just allow God to show me the meanings i need and follow the resultant directions with the guidance and in the Power of the Holy Spirit. Things have been working much better and going much more smoothly ever since. Try it--you'll like it!I can't understand why you would take the quote "not with us then against us" to such an extreeme. What else could "against" mean?; or "for", for that matter? What if being "for" someone or group didn't mean literally 'part of, one of, etc'?
Of course you can't It has to do with the building up of God's Kingdom, in the building up of which there can be NO NEUTRALITY!Also, I can't understand what context it would be in. In the context of battle, the context of justice??
MY BROTHER,
You misunderstand me (intentionally?). God's wishes and desires are crystal clear and clearly delineated in His written Word. My statement was to the effect that i am not clear how God will judge "those who are not for us"--i.e., those who refuse to think and act according to His very clear desires.
Is this directly connected to with the previous quote of "being not with and thereby against"?ephraimanesti said:"The Lord is not slow in keeping his word, as he seems to some, but he is waiting in mercy for you, not desiring the destruction of any, but that all may be turned from their evil ways and live."(II Peter 3:9b)
Are you drawing some sort of association between infamous historical figures and myself?ephraimanesti said:Of course you do--as did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, abortion doctors who murder babies and those who murder abortion doctors for murdering babies, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Osama bin Laden, and members of The Flat Earth Society.
Again, not correct. I assume the position of one who requires more than the word of other men. I don't refer to a supreme being as nonexistent just as that I don't believe in "Him". I am happy to consider any actual evidence/signs of God's being, should they present themselves and even in a hopeful state in such a case I will remain conscious in determining what is real and what isn't.ephraimanesti said:Given that you have denied the very existence of the source of all ultimate Truth and the only delineator of true Morality, thinking you can be sure that you are "right" about much of anything is a serious and fatal delusion.
No one can be perfect, so essentially we are always going to be wrong on any given level. It isn't a sin to strive to be better imo. Everyone has room to improve themselves in any aspect of their being.ephraimanesti said:Point being that the "myself" you are trying to be is a sinful, falled, deluded, and misguided human being, just like the rest of us. Without God, we are just a very large herd of self-destructive animals on the verge of extinction. As Paul puts it, "Their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools."(Romans 1:21-22)
Words are a concept that are a product of the intellect and therefore aren't literally alive to begin with.ephraimanesti said:REMEDY?--"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."(Proverbs 9:10)
The only way our lives can work--LIVING as opposed to mere animal existence--is to NOT adapt ourselves "to an ever-changing world" but to adapt ourselves to guidance of our unchanging Abba. "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."(Mark 13:31 (ASV)
Without neutrality of God's existence? This I can understand of someone who believes without question. Without neutrality in life though? This means that you're opinion will constantly place you on a side. How will you ever know for sure that you're actually doing what is trully right in God's eyes? If you follow without asking such questions then you might as well be ignorant of God.ephraimanesti said:My dear brother, i have lived most of my life under the shadow of the "what if syndrome." It is a spiritual killer! Now i just allow God to show me the meanings i need and follow the resultant directions with the guidance and in the Power of the Holy Spirit. Things have been working much better and going much more smoothly ever since. Try it--you'll like it!
Of course you can't It has to do with the building up of God's Kingdom, in the building up of which there can be NO NEUTRALITY!
ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
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