Am I a Legalist?

[hooverbranch]

Hi guys lately I have been struggling with some of my beliefs and the other week I was actually attacked by a Youth Leader and called a legalist so I have been thinking and am I? What is a Legalist exactly? Where do you draw the line from Being Above Reproach and Legalism?

 

[lonnienord]

i guess the question of "Why" answers your question: Why are you doing what you are doing? Is it to keep the law and draw attention to yourself or is it to Honor GOD?

the other question is also important: Are you insisting either loudly or softly that others do what you are doing? If you are telling people they have to live the way you are living that is probably legalistic and should be avoided.

If you are living all for JESUS then you will be critized but JESUS said you would be just ignore it.

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

 

[hooverbranch]

well ok I guess I will give a build up to why I am struggling with this. I went to a Christian Concert and the oppening band looked Gothic (now I know that doesnt make them bad but...) and they had bloody skulls on there shirts. Now I grew up in a household where you just dont wear that kinda stuff. But I couldnt stop thinking why they would wear that kinda stuff. I then tried to ask that question in my small group in sunday school and a youth leader attacked me over it and called me a legalist. Now lately I went to a "CHRISTIAN" get together and there was a BONG there and well I felt awkword really awkword and left as soon as possible. (I dont have a car so I couldnt leave right away) Now I feel I have a bad oppinion of those people who brought and smoked from the Bong even though they were of age and smoking Tobacco. Am I acting Legalisticly?

 

[frost]

Not in my opinion. It sounds like you were taking a stand - good for you.

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi guys lately I have been struggling with some of my beliefs and the other week I was actually attacked by a Youth Leader and called a legalist so I have been thinking and am I? What is a Legalist exactly? Where do you draw the line from Being Above Reproach and Legalism?

funny you should say that I have just got of the phone with a Brother and that is one of the things we talked about ....

I would say anyone who attempts to discern right from wrong FOR ANOTHER CHRISTIAN is in danger of legalism .
why?
because you are attempting to do the Holy Spirits job for them , if I make some rules of conduct for another Christian am I really helping them to be wise and discerning for themselves ?
I doubt it .
Advice is one thing , rules are another , and why should a person be dictated to on the ground of anothers ideas .

Best to have principles that are good than rules that bind ....... and lead by example rather than by arguement or man made Laws.

Greetings Cygnus

 

[hooverbranch]

Ok now first off I would like to say I have not confronted anyone about either of the issues but should I? I mean we are suppose to correct and rebuke a brother/sister in christ what about the Sins that are not Black and White?

 

[CalvinOwen]

well ok I guess I will give a build up to why I am struggling with this. I went to a Christian Concert and the oppening band looked Gothic (now I know that doesnt make them bad but...) and they had bloody skulls on there shirts. Now I grew up in a household where you just dont wear that kinda stuff. But I couldnt stop thinking why they would wear that kinda stuff. I then tried to ask that question in my small group in sunday school and a youth leader attacked me over it and called me a legalist. Now lately I went to a "CHRISTIAN" get together and there was a BONG there and well I felt awkword really awkword and left as soon as possible. (I dont have a car so I couldnt leave right away) Now I feel I have a bad oppinion of those people who brought and smoked from the Bong even though they were of age and smoking Tobacco. Am I acting Legalisticly?

You sound more like a Christian to me.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

The difference between a legalist and one who is following Christ is determined by whether or not the legalist sees their good works/expectations of others as ways to appease God or ways to obey God. While there is nothing about what shirt you wear that makes you good or bad, the image of Christ that you reflect is something that anyone should consider.

I feel that such clothing celebrates death and things that are socially thought of as evil. That may not be true of the person wearing the shirt, but is thier life projecting the same message as their song? And is it legalism to not embrace the "to thine own self be true" post-modernism denial of absolute truth?

There are many who need to chill out about certain things, but there are also others who use the name "legalist" as a weapon to harm those who are correcting and rebuking them within the love of Christain fellowship. Who is the one that is showing the least amount of love?

I'm no philosopher, but this is something to think about.

 

[CalvinOwen]

funny you should say that I have just got of the phone with a Brother and that is one of the things we talked about ....

I would say anyone who attempts to discern right from wrong FOR ANOTHER CHRISTIAN is in danger of legalism .
why?
because you are attempting to do the Holy Spirits job for them , if I make some rules of conduct for another Christian am I really helping them to be wise and discerning for themselves ?
I doubt it .
Advice is one thing , rules are another , and why should a person be dictated to on the ground of anothers ideas .

Best to have principles that are good than rules that bind ....... and lead by example rather than by arguement or man made Laws.

Greetings Cygnus

I think that is ridiculous. Of course a Christian brother can correct another brother w/o it be calling "playing the Holy Spirit." Where is all your scripture to back this up, and by your standards are you now "playing the Holy Spirit" by correcting a brother? Or don't your rules apply to you?

 

[Jon_]

I think that is ridiculous. Of course a Christian brother can correct another brother w/o it be calling "playing the Holy Spirit." Where is all your scripture to back this up, and by your standards are you now "playing the Holy Spirit" by correcting a brother? Or don't your rules apply to you?

Come now, Calvin, that tone is hardly constructive. He is not an Arminian for crying out loud!

Seriously, though, let us be firm, but loving in our rebukes. Your points are valid. We have the example of Paul confronting Peter for Peter's repugnant acts. Paul was certainly not gentle in his addressing of Peter, but he was firm and loving. He also understood that it must strongly be conveyed that the kind of behavior Peter was exhibiting could not be tolerated.

We are called to rebuke each other by the Holy Spirit. All Scripture is inspired of the Spirit and the Scripture calls us to correct each other by it. Let it not be said that man should not do the work of the Holy Spirit in correction for that is anti-Scripture. The Spirit corrects through such intervention! Likewise does he correct without! God is sovereign, and through him are all things worked for good. When we uphold his Word in accordance with it, our acts are counted as righteousness, for they are done by a desire to please God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy (Rom. 9:16). God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things (Acts 17:24-25).

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Dan. 4:35)

I love this passage from Daniel. The sheer arrogance of the posited question make me laugh every time I read it: What doest thou? Ha, ha! What nerve for man to reply against God so! Ha! I love it. What an amazing verse. Who are you, O man, to reply against God? (Rom. 9:19)

Ok, I think I got a little off-topic and started reveling in God's sovereignty. I hope you'll forgive me this disgression--t'was for the glory of God after all!

Soli Deo Gloria,
Jon

 

[Truly Blessed]

well ok I guess I will give a build up to why I am struggling with this....snip

The way I understand this you voiced your opionion/or asked what people thought in a Sunday School setting.

I cant believe a leader would do that - figuratively speaking. That is where issues should be discussed.

I dont care if people smoke cig. but I would kind of wonder why a bong is being used to smoke tobacco - and where are they going to get a bong but from a drug related store in less tobacco shops have changed a lot.

Some christians don't believe in drinking alchol and would not be caught alive or dead in a liquor store and that is fine for them others see no problem with it.

If you have a problem with people smoking tobacco through a bong, that is your right and don't have to feel bad about leaving.

As for the concert, I have a hard time distingushing the difference between Christian Rock and the reprobate rock exspeciallly (sp) since I cant get the words being song.

 

[hooverbranch]

The way I understand this you voiced your opionion/or asked what people thought in a Sunday School setting.

I cant believe a leader would do that - figuratively speaking. That is where issues should be discussed.

I dont care if people smoke cig. but I would kind of wonder why a bong is being used to smoke tobacco - and where are they going to get a bong but from a drug related store in less tobacco shops have changed a lot.

Some christians don't believe in drinking alchol and would not be caught alive or dead in a liquor store and that is fine for them others see no problem with it.

If you have a problem with people smoking tobacco through a bong, that is your right and don't have to feel bad about leaving.

As for the concert, I have a hard time distingushing the difference between Christian Rock and the reprobate rock exspeciallly (sp) since I cant get the words being song.

Ok well about the Sunday school right now we are going through these books called the "First Principles Series" and how we do it is we all do a chapter in our books and come sunday and instead of a lesson we get in small groups divided by grades and gender with a couple of Youth Leaders and the Youth Leaders Lead the discussion. So it wasnt necessarilly the traditional Sunday School atmosphere but the way I was attacked was awfully bad and its sad I have no respect for this leader and frankly dont know how he is a leader. I wanted to go talk to him about how he aproaches people but I thought he would yell at me and try and make me cry again.

And from what I understand they sell Bongs at Tobacco stores selling for reasoning that they can be used for Tobacco.

 

[Truly Blessed]

I understand, but you should still be able to state your opionion/view or how you felt without being attacked. How else are we going to learn about how others view things.
If you really have an issue with the leader you might want to address the issue to your pastor imo.

Cry again - definately something wrong hear if that is his intention. (orignally typed nothing instead of something . Glad I checked my post before hand. )

 

[cygnusx1]

I think that is ridiculous. Of course a Christian brother can correct another brother w/o it be calling "playing the Holy Spirit." Where is all your scripture to back this up, and by your standards are you now "playing the Holy Spirit" by correcting a brother? Or don't your rules apply to you?

Read my post again , It does not deny a place for Correcting a brother , it does deny a place for making RULES for another on the basis of personal conscience .
If you can see a RULE in my post you are denying it's message , it is not "playin the Holy Spirit " to affirm Biblical principles.

IF , (and remember what may be sin for YOU , may be OK for a Brother) your brother sins ........... etc

 

[CalvinOwen]

Read my post again , It does not deny a place for Correcting a brother , it does deny a place for making RULES for another on the basis of personal conscience .
If you can see a RULE in my post you are denying it's message , it is not "playin the Holy Spirit " to affirm Biblical principles.

IF , (and remember what may be sin for YOU , may be OK for a Brother) your brother sins ........... etc

I am proud of hoover and instead of condemning him I think we should speak out loudly and proudly of his actions. He also showed great courage by speaking out which quite frankly I see very much lacking in us reformed ones.

I also think the things hoover spoke out against are wrong.

I have teenagers who do the same as hoover and I'm proud of them as well.

 

[hooverbranch]

Read my post again , It does not deny a place for Correcting a brother , it does deny a place for making RULES for another on the basis of personal conscience .
If you can see a RULE in my post you are denying it's message , it is not "playin the Holy Spirit " to affirm Biblical principles.

IF , (and remember what may be sin for YOU , may be OK for a Brother) your brother sins ........... etc

Well I think a Sin is a Sin but when you are talking about the stuff I was I guess those arent 'Cear Cut" sins but we are to be blameless umongst the eyes of men and I believe both those things could hurt your testimony so I think it would still be needed to Confront Just not anything up for Church discipline.

 

[Croooz]

I would opinion that your youth "leader" is behaving like an idiot in this instance. I guess up to this point the irony has escaped ya Hoover...I'll explain:

The youth leader is calling you legalistic because of your questions but is he more upset that you even asked or that you asked during what should have been a different discussion? Thereby adhering to his law for the group which now has him resembling a legalistic youth leader....

Rest assured you were correct in questioning....nothing wrong with questions. Too many feel as though "it shouldn't matter" what they wear. The reality is perception equals reality and isn't there something about conforming not to this world....

 

[Gabriel]

hoover,

I have 4 children. 2 boys 13 and 3 1/2 months and 2 girls 8 and 10. I pray that they turn out like you.

As a Ruling Elder and a youth leader, I have to agree that your youth leader was out of line. I'd have him in our next Session meeting if he were in my particular church. You are seeking to be holy and pure. You are seeking to stand against the culture and honor your Savior. Can't say I see anything wrong with that.

 

[hooverbranch]

hoover,

I have 4 children. 2 boys 13 and 3 1/2 months and 2 girls 8 and 10. I pray that they turn out like you.

As a Ruling Elder and a youth leader, I have to agree that your youth leader was out of line. I'd have him in our next Session meeting if he were in my particular church. You are seeking to be holy and pure. You are seeking to stand against the culture and honor your Savior. Can't say I see anything wrong with that.

Yea my youth Pastor was actually in Mexico with my Brother when this happened so he doesnt even know. And i figure that I dont need to tell him about it unless it comes up again. This Youth Leader will probably attack someone else and someday he will attack the wrong person and then he will be in trouble.

As for the commment about me I hope they turn out to be way more Godly than I. I am a wretched sinner and stumble often I know we all do but I would still hope your Children would be farther than I.(thanks for the compliment though)

 

[Gabriel]

As for the commment about me I hope they turn out to be way more Godly than I. I am a wretched sinner and stumble often I know we all do but I would still hope your Children would be farther than I.(thanks for the compliment though)

This statement just makes me feel more strongly about what I said.