Alternative to the literal 24hr and day-age views of creation

[dms1972]

I was reading about this just now and thought that I was worth mentioning as its not an interpretation I have heard much about.

Its called the Revelational view, and was held by Johannes Kurz, PJ Wiseman and Bernard Ramm.

Briefly it holds that the days mentioned in Genesis chapter one are 24hr days but these are not the days of the Divine activity of creation itself. Rather they are "days of Revelation", in which God revealed His works of creation to man, which, however, assuredly needed vast periods of time. During the six days of twenty four hours God showed man what He had brought to pass in the course of the geological periods.

Augustine expressed a similiar, but not identical view, when he suggested that the six days were six pictures, in which God allowed the angels to see His works.


Any thoughts on this.

 

[Willtor]

I've heard this view. It seems quite plausible from the English, but it relies on a particular grammatical twist that English allows. I don't know about Hebrew. For that kind of thing, one would like some support from Rabbis or Church Fathers who knew Hebrew -- especially in ancient times. St. Augustine's taking it in the way he took it doesn't rely on any particular grammatical ambiguity, which is probably deliberate, on his part. Though brilliant and insightful, he only knew Latin.

 

[Aman777]

I was reading about this just now and thought that I was worth mentioning as its not an interpretation I have heard much about.

Its called the Revelational view, and was held by Johannes Kurz, PJ Wiseman and Bernard Ramm.

Briefly it holds that the days mentioned in Genesis chapter one are 24hr days but these are not the days of the Divine activity of creation itself. Rather they are "days of Revelation", in which God revealed His works of creation to man, which, however, assuredly needed vast periods of time. During the six days of twenty four hours God showed man what He had brought to pass in the course of the geological periods.

Augustine expressed a similiar, but not identical view, when he suggested that the six days were six pictures, in which God allowed the angels to see His works.

Any thoughts on this.

God has but 7 Days (periods of time) and we currently live at the end of the present 6th Day, and the 7th Day is Eternity.

 

[dms1972]

I've heard this view. It seems quite plausible from the English, but it relies on a particular grammatical twist that English allows. I don't know about Hebrew. For that kind of thing, one would like some support from Rabbis or Church Fathers who knew Hebrew -- especially in ancient times. St. Augustine's taking it in the way he took it doesn't rely on any particular grammatical ambiguity, which is probably deliberate, on his part. Though brilliant and insightful, he only knew Latin.

From what I read the common view among the church fathers was the 24hr days view. I don't know about the Rabbis that would be interesting to know. I don't have any books by the writters I mentioned if there is other support they would likely mention it.

 

[dms1972]

God has but 7 Days (periods of time) and we currently live at the end of the present 6th Day, and the 7th Day is Eternity.

I think I heard this interpretation once also, is there support for it, others who hold it?

 

[Willtor]

From what I read the common view among the church fathers was the 24hr days view. I don't know about the Rabbis that would be interesting to know. I don't have any books by the writters I mentioned if there is other support they would likely mention it.

Among the Church Fathers who took Genesis as an historical account, yes, they took the days as "days" of creation. This is not exactly the same as a 24 hour view... more like a 16 hour view. A "24 hour day" is a very modern idea. This alternative literal interpretation you mention in the OP is not one I've read in them.

 

[Aman777]

Among the Church Fathers who took Genesis as an historical account, yes, they took the days as "days" of creation. This is not exactly the same as a 24 hour view... more like a 16 hour view. A "24 hour day" is a very modern idea. This alternative literal interpretation you mention in the OP is not one I've read in them.

The reason for this misunderstanding is the Hebrew word for Day, which is Yowm. Yowm can mean 12 or 24 hours, a lifetime, or forever. Here is the word from Strong's:

yowm Pronunciation yōm (Key)
Part of Speech masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology) From an unused root meaning to be hot

TWOT Reference 852

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. day, time, year
   1. day (as opposed to night)
      
      
   2. day (24 hour period)
      1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
         
         
      2. as a division of time
         1. a working day, a day's journey
   3. days, lifetime (pl.)
      
      
   4. time, period (general)
      
      
   5. year
      
      
   6. temporal references
      1. today
         
         
      2. yesterday
         
         
      3. tomorrow

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2287
AV — day 2008, time 64, chronicles + 01697
37, daily 44, ever 18, year 14,continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8 always 4, whole 4, alway 4, misc 44

Since God has but 7 Days/periods of time in the Creation and the future 7th Day/Yowm is Eternity, ancient theologians who taught that it was always 24 hours were wrong. The present 6th Day will continue until the 3rd Heaven is filled with it's host (Christians) as Gen 2:1 states.

Gen 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, (completed) and ALL the host of them.

So long as The Trinity continues to create Adam (mankind) in Christ Spiritually, His work continues on the present 6th Day. Amen?

 

[Willtor]

The reason for this misunderstanding is the Hebrew word for Day, which is Yowm. Yowm can mean 12 or 24 hours, a lifetime, or forever. Here is the word from Strong's:

yowm Pronunciation yōm (Key)
Part of Speech masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology) From an unused root meaning to be hot

TWOT Reference 852

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. day, time, year
   1. day (as opposed to night)
      
      
   2. day (24 hour period)
      1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
         
         
      2. as a division of time
         1. a working day, a day's journey
   3. days, lifetime (pl.)
      
      
   4. time, period (general)
      
      
   5. year
      
      
   6. temporal references
      1. today
         
         
      2. yesterday
         
         
      3. tomorrow

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2287
AV — day 2008, time 64, chronicles + 01697
37, daily 44, ever 18, year 14,continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8 always 4, whole 4, alway 4, misc 44

Since God has but 7 Days/periods of time in the Creation and the future 7th Day/Yowm is Eternity, ancient theologians who taught that it was always 24 hours were wrong. The present 6th Day will continue until the 3rd Heaven is filled with it's host (Christians) as Gen 2:1 states.

Gen 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, (completed) and ALL the host of them.

So long as The Trinity continues to create Adam (mankind) in Christ Spiritually, His work continues on the present 6th Day. Amen?

I don't know about any of this. But, at any rate, the Church Fathers who took Genesis as an historical account thought the world was made in 6 days.

 

[Aman777]

I don't know about any of this. But, at any rate, the Church Fathers who took Genesis as an historical account thought the world was made in 6 days.

Sure, but it doesn't agree with Scripture, Science nor History. Does this mean that we are supposed to believe that what mankind has discovered in the past few thousand years, doesn't matter? Do we have one Truth for the Church and another for factual discoveries? Or does what we have learned mean that ancient men were wrong?

Gen 1:27 shows that we are STILL in the 6th Day because God is STILL creating mankind in His Image, which is in Christ Spiritually. Also, the prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 is FUTURE since the events shown there will NOT take place until After Jesus returns to this Planet to rule and reign for a thousand years. Amen?

 

[Willtor]

Sure, but it doesn't agree with Scripture, Science nor History. Does this mean that we are supposed to believe that what mankind has discovered in the past few thousand years, doesn't matter? Do we have one Truth for the Church and another for factual discoveries? Or does what we have learned mean that ancient men were wrong?

Gen 1:27 shows that we are STILL in the 6th Day because God is STILL creating mankind in His Image, which is in Christ Spiritually. Also, the prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 is FUTURE since the events shown there will NOT take place until After Jesus returns to this Planet to rule and reign for a thousand years. Amen?

I don't think Genesis was intended to be "historical" in the modern sense of the word. What I'm saying is what I see in those of the early Church Fathers who took it in that way.

 

[Papias]

Its called the Revelational view, and was held by Johannes Kurz, PJ Wiseman and Bernard Ramm.
Briefly it holds that the days mentioned in Genesis chapter one are 24hr days ... in which God revealed His works of creation to man, which, however, assuredly needed vast periods of time. During the six days of twenty four hours God showed man what He had brought to pass in the course of the geological periods.

Augustine expressed a similiar, but not identical view, when he suggested that the six days were six pictures, in which God allowed the angels to see His works.


Any thoughts on this.

I think it makes sense, going by what the text itself says. After all, the human writer obviously wasn't there to see the creation. So then, one might ask, is this God describing what He did? Of course not, because it refers to Himself in the 3rd person ( it doesn't read: "and on day 2, I did this, and on day 3 I did that'"). No, it refers to God doing things, as an observer would describe it.

Since that observer would be the human writer, he must have been seeing a vision.

That neatly solves the problem of the "order" of creation. Specifically, the order of events in Genesis doesn't fit with the order of events in reality. Genesis describes the plants being made before the sun, birds before life on land, and other such absurdities. If this was a vision, then God could show it in any order, including the topic based order we seen in Genesis - make then fill in same order -
(1 make day & night, 2 make sea & sky, 3 make earth, then
............. 4 fill day & night, 5 fill sea & sky, 6 fill earth).

Day:

Make...fill
1 .....4
2......5
3.....6

That answer was there, right in front of us, all along.

I'm glad it was recognized.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[Aman777]

Gen 1:27 shows that we are STILL in the 6th Day because God is STILL creating mankind in His Image, which is in Christ Spiritually. Also, the prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 is FUTURE since the events shown there will NOT take place until After Jesus returns to this Planet to rule and reign for a thousand years. Amen?

I don't think Genesis was intended to be "historical" in the modern sense of the word. What I'm saying is what I see in those of the early Church Fathers who took it in that way.

You didn't answer my post which clearly shows that Gen 1:28-31 is future...UNLESS you can show us of any time in the past when Humans had dominion or rule over viruses, mosquitoes, or Angels 1Co 6:3 since ALL of them are living things and Gen 1:28 says:

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

This is possible AFTER Jesus returns because He changes "every thing wherein there is life" into plant eaters. This includes mankind, Bears and Lions as Isa 11:6-7 clearly shows:

Isa 11:6 ¶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Can ANYONE show us of a time in the past when Bears, Lions and every other living creature were vegetarians. Of course not, since it will NOT happen until Jesus returns at the end of the present 6th Day in the Creation of the perfect 3rd Heaven exactly as Gen 1:30 states.

This is normally when people run away, or stick their heads in the sand, since NO one has EVER shown another interpretation of these verses. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

I think it makes sense, going by what the text itself says. After all, the human writer obviously wasn't there to see the creation. So then, one might ask, is this God describing what He did? Of course not, because it refers to Himself in the 3rd person ( it doesn't read: "and on day 2, I did this, and on day 3 I did that'"). No, it refers to God doing things, as an observer would describe it.

The Writer of these words is the Holy Spirit as the following verse shows:

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, moved the men who physically wrote what He moved them to write from inside them.

*** Since that observer would be the human writer, he must have been seeing a vision.

That neatly solves the problem of the "order" of creation. Specifically, the order of events in Genesis doesn't fit with the order of events in reality. Genesis describes the plants being made before the sun, birds before life on land, and other such absurdities. If this was a vision, then God could show it in any order, including the topic based order we seen in Genesis - make then fill in same order -
(1 make day & night, 2 make sea & sky, 3 make earth, then
............. 4 fill day & night, 5 fill sea & sky, 6 fill earth).

Day:

Make...fill
1 .....4
2......5
3.....6

That answer was there, right in front of us, all along.
I'm glad it was recognized.

Sorry, but the events are out of order with what is actually written. Here is the Scriptural chronology:

Day 1, God creates air, ground and water and darkness/death was on them so God spoke and Jesus comes into the physical world from within the invisible Spirit of God in order to destroy the darkness/death Gen 1:1-5
Day 2, Adam's solid firmament/heaven was made in the midst of water Gen 1:6-8
Day 3, God puts water inside the firmament and puts dry ground on top, but BEFORE He makes the plants, herbs and Trees, He makes Adam. Gen 2:4-7 and other HeavenS or worlds, the 2nd and 3rd Heavens
Day 4, God lights the Stars of the present world
Day 5, God creates "every living creature that moveth" from the water on both Adam's world and the present world. Gen 1:21
Day 6, Jesus makes the beasts of the field, birds and creeping things from the ground. Then He makes Eve and then Adam and Eve are "created" in God's Image, or in Christ, by the Trinity. Gen 1:27 and Gen 5:1-2

This brings us up to the present 6th Day which will NOT end until Jesus returns to this Earth to rule and reign for a thousand years. Gen 1:28-31 His work will NOT be finished or brought to perfection until DEATH is destroyed before the 7th Day begins.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

That is God's Truth of the Creation, Scripturally. Amen?

 

[Willtor]

Gen 1:27 shows that we are STILL in the 6th Day because God is STILL creating mankind in His Image, which is in Christ Spiritually. Also, the prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 is FUTURE since the events shown there will NOT take place until After Jesus returns to this Planet to rule and reign for a thousand years. Amen?



You didn't answer my post which clearly shows that Gen 1:28-31 is future...UNLESS you can show us of any time in the past when Humans had dominion or rule over viruses, mosquitoes, or Angels 1Co 6:3 since ALL of them are living things and Gen 1:28 says:

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

This is possible AFTER Jesus returns because He changes "every thing wherein there is life" into plant eaters. This includes mankind, Bears and Lions as Isa 11:6-7 clearly shows:

Isa 11:6 ¶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Can ANYONE show us of a time in the past when Bears, Lions and every other living creature were vegetarians. Of course not, since it will NOT happen until Jesus returns at the end of the present 6th Day in the Creation of the perfect 3rd Heaven exactly as Gen 1:30 states.

This is normally when people run away, or stick their heads in the sand, since NO one has EVER shown another interpretation of these verses. Amen?

I answered it quite succinctly: I don't think that's what Genesis is for. Therefore, I interpret it differently.

 

[Job8]

Augustine expressed a similiar, but not identical view, when he suggested that the six days were six pictures, in which God allowed the angels to see His works.

Augustine had many things right and many things wrong (including this). Forget about Augustine.

There is absolutely no reason to fantasize about creation. Had God chosen to create the universe in a moment of time He would have done it. Instead He provided a work-rest pattern for mankind (Exodus 20:8-11): Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger thatis within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Those who discuss Genesis 1 and 2 conveniently forget the Ten Commandments, which were carved into stone by the finger of God.

 

[dms1972]

more like a 16 hour view. A "24 hour day" is a very modern idea. This alternative literal interpretation you mention in the OP is not one I've read in them.

I didn't know that about the hours in a day being 16 - you mean from sunrise to sunset, not counting the night hours? It was still 24 hrs from sunrise to sunrise though.

No the alternative 'revelational view' is not held by them its a mediating view
My info came from Eric Sauers book King of the Earth, he lists five main interpretations.

1. Literal 24 hr days
2. Day-Age, ie. each day was a long period.
3. The revelational view
4. Idealist - 'days of God' not comparable with earthly days or long periods.
5. Restitution Theory

 

[Willtor]

I didn't know that about the hours in a day being 16 - you mean from sunrise to sunset, not counting the night hours? It was still 24 hrs from sunrise to sunrise though.

No the alternative 'revelational view' is not held by them its a mediating view
My info came from Eric Sauers book King of the Earth, he lists five main interpretations.

1. Literal 24 hr days
2. Day-Age, ie. each day was a long period.
3. The revelational view
4. Idealist - 'days of God' not comparable with earthly days or long periods.
5. Restitution Theory

Yeah, sunrise to sunset. This is how ancient people thought about "days." The big reasons we do differently are: 1. we have clocks that continue working after the sun has set, and 2. the world is connected and we have timezones. But, yeah, as you say: sunrise-to-sunrise was 24 hours -- only, nobody actually conceptualized it in that way. It is more accurate to say that a day was ~16 hours.

I'm afraid I don't know Eric Sauers, or that particular book. My two main influences on how I understand Genesis are: St. Athanasius of Alexandria and Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

 

[Aman777]

The reason for this misunderstanding is the Hebrew word for Day, which is Yowm. Yowm can mean 12 or 24 hours, a lifetime, or forever. Here is the word from Strong's:

yowm Pronunciation yōm (Key)
Part of Speech masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology) From an unused root meaning to be hot

TWOT Reference 852

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. day, time, year
   1. day (as opposed to night)
      
      
   2. day (24 hour period)
      1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
         
         
      2. as a division of time
         1. a working day, a day's journey
   3. days, lifetime (pl.)
      
      
   4. time, period (general)
      
      
   5. year
      
      
   6. temporal references
      1. today
         
         
      2. yesterday
         
         
      3. tomorrow

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2287
AV — day 2008, time 64, chronicles + 01697
37, daily 44, ever 18, year 14,continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8 always 4,whole 4, alway 4, misc 44

Since God has but 7 Days/periods of time in the Creation and the future 7th Day/Yowm is Eternity, ancient theologians who taught that it was always 24 hours were wrong. The present 6th Day will continue until the 3rd Heaven is filled with it's host (Christians) as Gen 2:1 states.

Gen 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, (completed) and ALL the host of them.

So long as The Trinity continues to create Adam (mankind) in Christ Spiritually, His work continues on the present 6th Day. Amen?

 

[Willtor]

Deja vu!

 

[Aman777]

Deja vu!

Just reposting God's Truth since some continue to post UnScriptural views.