Alternate History:No Protestant Reformation

[abacabb]

Watching the movie Luther (2003) has a scene where when a Pope dies, they imply perhaps choosing Luther, before learning he got married. Pure fantasy of course, but let's engage in some fantasy.

I wonder what would have happened if Pope Adrian VI would have lived longer, and by some act of God, decided to take Luther seriously and unequivocally addressed issues of Church corruption including the selling of indulgences. To make this fantasy situation work, let's say Adrian VI treated these schismatics as Uniates are, allowing them to marry and to even more liberally accept their theological differences within a truly universal church.

Then, let's say, the next few Popes were essentially hands-off reformist types. Calvin springs up, but with a much more tolerant church does not renounce the church office his father bought for him as a child. Calvinism instead springs up as a school of thought within Catholicism.

Surviving the personalities of Luther and Calvin, would Anglicanism still arise? What future disputes may erupt? What steps can be taken to bring the East back into communion?

 

[Albion]

The parts in this speculation are reasonable enough, but my immediate reaction is that the whole package gives us a "what if" too far, like asking what would it have been like if the Roman Empire had been overrun by bands of American natives who then discovered electricity.

 

[abacabb]

The parts in this speculation are reasonable enough, but my immediate reaction is that the whole package gives us a "what if" too far, like asking what would it have been like if the Roman Empire had been overrun by bands of American natives who then discovered electricity.

Yes, but that's a subject for a different forum

 

[Albion]

Yes, but that's a subject for a different forum

Very good.

 

[abacabb]

Personally, I am of the opinion the Catholic Church could have held it together, even with the invention of the printing press. Hussites disappeared for example, if Luther was brought back into the fold, the iconoclast peasant riots in Germany would have been forgotten now.

Now, the changes the Catholic Church would have had to do would have required a large degree of political concenssions, which one of the most, if not THE most, powerful political entity would have never done without a fight. Of course, in retrospect, keeping the Catholic Church together at the expense of ceding secular political power to European nation states is the way better business decesion and it would have saved lives and perhaps invigorated Christianity (as a lot of what people are motivated by these days is factional baptist versus reformed presbyterian versus ecla lutheran versus catholic etc.). A Catholic Church that has a diversity of opinions already exists (Jesuits versus dominicans versus augustinians versus uniates etc.) I personally think we would be talking about the Calvinist order and etc. if things shook up differently.

 

[Albion]

Personally, I am of the opinion the Catholic Church could have held it together, even with the invention of the printing press. Hussites disappeared for example, if Luther was brought back into the fold, the iconoclast peasant riots in Germany would have been forgotten now.

Now, the changes the Catholic Church would have had to do would have required a large degree of political concenssions, which one of the most, if not THE most, powerful political entity would have never done without a fight. Of course, in retrospect, keeping the Catholic Church together at the expense of ceding secular political power to European nation states is the way better business decesion and it would have saved lives and perhaps invigorated Christianity (as a lot of what people are motivated by these days is factional baptist versus reformed presbyterian versus ecla lutheran versus catholic etc.). A Catholic Church that has a diversity of opinions already exists (Jesuits versus dominicans versus augustinians versus uniates etc.) I personally think we would be talking about the Calvinist order and etc. if things shook up differently.

You are making me think on this, all right. I guess I'd say that the Catholic Church could have kept it together in at least most of the territory it lost, but only for awhile longer. In time, the results would have been similar to what we ultimately got, but with history bypassing some of the Protestant Christian movement and going straight to Deism/Skepticism, etc. But I also think there are so many variables that this could be completely wrong, just as easily.

 

[abacabb]

You are making me think on this, all right. I guess I'd say that the Catholic Church could have kept it together in at least most of the territory it lost, but only for awhile longer. In time, the results would have been similar to what we ultimately got, but with history bypassing some of the Protestant Christian movement and going straight to Deism/Skepticism, etc. But I also think there are so many variables that this could be completely wrong, just as easily.

I really wonder of some of the crazy arminian doctrines (methodism, adventism, mormonism, etc) would have ever appeared. Your probably right that skepticism with the rise of science probably would have been the big debate.

 

[Albion]

I really wonder of some of the crazy arminian doctrines (methodism, adventism, mormonism, etc) would have ever appeared. Your probably right that skepticism with the rise of science probably would have been the big debate.

I'm confident that Methodism would have developed, because that was an internal reaction to socio-economic developments and the Christian churches having become whited sepulchres. I can't see history bypassing those factors, whether or not there was a Reformation. But some of the more doctrinally-driven opponents of Rome might not have appeared, I'm guessing.

 

[Knee V]

I think that a more plausible "what if" scenario would be a handful of schismatic national churches developing. Those schismatic national churches would probably either all be in communion with each other, be their own separate communions, or enter into dialogue with, and possibly communion with, the Eastern church.

 

[abacabb]

I think that a more plausible "what if" scenario would be a handful of schismatic national churches developing. Those schismatic national churches would probably either all be in communion with each other, be their own separate communions, or enter into dialogue with, and possibly communion with, the Eastern church.

Which countries?

 

[Albion]

Yeh. Why national churches as you said? After all, much of what we actually got amounts to just that, but you are thinking of something even more nationalistic or separate??

 

[abacabb]

Yeh. Why national churches as you said? After all, much of what we actually got amounts to just that, but you are thinking of something even more nationalistic or separate??

The Hussites "succeeded" in there already being a "separate" Czech Church I believe and Denmark and Norway moved to a state church as early as 1521. Perhaps the reformation was "inevitable" for political reasons and it was only a matter of time that the Germanic and English peoples would have split off?

 

[Albion]

The Hussites "succeeded" in there already being a "separate" Czech Church I believe and Denmark and Norway moved to a state church as early as 1521. Perhaps the reformation was "inevitable" for political reasons and it was only a matter of time that the Germanic and English peoples would have split off?

I've apparently missed something here. All of that happened, so how does your scenario about there being national churches instead of what the Reformation produced differ from it?

 

[abacabb]

I've apparently missed something here. All of that happened, so how does your scenario about there being national churches instead of what the Reformation produced differ from it?

I'm presuming that because the hussite church died in real history, that without the theological underpinnings of the reformation, the state church movements wouldn't occur, at least not in the Holy Roman Empire and England. Scandanavia might go back and forth, but without a large base of support they'd get crushed by Catholics in a war. The thirty years war couldn't end protestantism simply because once you open that can of worms, there's no putting it back together.

 

[Albion]

I'm presuming that because the hussite church died in real history, that without the theological underpinnings of the reformation, the state church movements wouldn't occur, at least not in the Holy Roman Empire and England. Scandanavia might go back and forth, but without a large base of support they'd get crushed by Catholics in a war.

Not sure about the Scandinavian prospects but otherwise I agree with you...which would mean that that "national churches" idea probably isn't realistic.

 

[Knee V]

My point was that if we're going to play with alternate history, then what if instead of developing multiple new theological points of view and building churches around them, nations simply broke communion with Rome and dropped some of the excesses. After that, perhaps they may all come into come into communion with each other, stay separate, or go and join the East.

 

[abacabb]

My point was that if we're going to play with alternate history, then what if instead of developing multiple new theological points of view and building churches around them, nations simply broke communion with Rome and dropped some of the excesses. After that, perhaps they may all come into come into communion with each other, stay separate, or go and join the East.

Doesn't make sense though. People still believe they go to hell unless they are Roman Catholic, so without changing theology it would be hard to just have a bunch of "greedy schismatics." Also, if they were all like England and simply playing politics, who would they create a supranational church after that point?

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

Surviving the personalities of Luther and Calvin, would Anglicanism still arise? What future disputes may erupt? What steps can be taken to bring the East back into communion?

Anglicanism arose for one reason, and one reason only: Henry V wanted a divorce, more than he wanted to be in Rome's good book.

 

[abacabb]

Anglicanism arose for one reason, and one reason only: Henry V wanted a divorce, more than he wanted to be in Rome's good book.

So, Anglicanism would still exist and probably survive, thanks to the English channel...however, after his passing England might have stayed Catholic, especially without any theological reason to change. It'd definitely change the mid 1600s as well.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

So, Anglicanism would still exist and probably survive, thanks to the English channel...however, after his passing England might have stayed Catholic, especially without any theological reason to change. It'd definitely change the mid 1600s as well.

Well, probably not, because if the entirety of Continental Europe is still RC, England would stand alone. And England at this time is not strong enough to stand alone against the combined might of all of Europe. The Emperor would have the combined might of the new superpower, Spain (driven primarily by zeal), France (driven primarily by the chance to give the old arch-enemy a righteous licking), and a largely unscathed Germany (driven by...well, being subject to the Emperor's whims) at his disposal.
Against this, England could not have hoped to stand. Even in OTL, England was basically saved by the weather (sinking of the Spanish Armada). Had it not been for this event, England would have fallen anyway, and one of two things would have happened:
1: A Spanish puppet installed on the throne (more likely)
2: The Pope would have granted the crown of England to the King of Spain (less likely).

Whatever the case, "Anglicanism" would be rooted out, faster than you can spell "Inquisition".