Alright Bible Whizzes

[justified]

Explain this:

11 ¶ Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt. 16 "‘The priest shall bring her and make her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has made the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath—"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away." "‘Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it." 23 "‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to make the woman drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh* waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. 28 If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children. 29 "‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to make her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’"

* "Thigh" here is a relatively common semitic euphenism for genitalia.

 

[FreezBee]

Please, if possible, be more specific about, what it is we are to explain. The whole thing? How the curse is supposed to work? Why at all bother with infidelity? Or what?

- FreezBee

 

[justified]

I want to know what it says,
how it means,
and how we should be uplifted by it.

Give me the background -- make this passage real to someone in the 21st century without losing the original intent of the passage.

This is what we call exegesis, and you've been given one of the more colorful passages in the OT. I just want all these people here, who have themselves really nice, pretty systems with which to understand scripture, to um, how do you say- - wake up?

 

[Dmckay]

I want to know what it says,
how it means,
and how we should be uplifted by it.

Give me the background -- make this passage real to someone in the 21st century without losing the original intent of the passage.

This is what we call exegesis, and you've been given one of the more colorful passages in the OT. I just want all these people here, who have themselves really nice, pretty systems with which to understand scripture, to um, how do you say- - wake up?

You start your post with what can be assumed is either a challenge or an insult. When asked what exactly your question is, you respond with what sounds like an attitude that "this can't possibly be intended to be taken seriously." You know the word exegesis, but do you have any idea how much work and information you are asking for?

Considering the attitude with which you posit your question why should any one take the time to provide you with an answer? It clearly seems to me that your mind is already made up.

 

[justified]

You start your post with what can be assumed is either a challenge or an insult. When asked what exactly your question is, you respond with what sounds like an attitude that "this can't possibly be intended to be taken seriously." You know the word exegesis, but do you have any idea how much work and information you are asking for?Considering the attitude with which you posit your question why should any one take the time to provide you with an answer? It clearly seems to me that your mind is already made up.

Let me put it this way. I'm currently research the passage. Thanks to a back ground in ANE studies, I have a good basic handle on the passage. But there's a lot I don't understand about it. And frankly, I was interested in what the first reaction was from people here.The "exegesis" was a bit of a dig, yes. I'm annoyed with (not anyone in particular) how some people on this forum have the entire bible figured out -- mainly by means of deciding something, then putting their hands over their ears and goin "laalalalalala." This is a passage that, if read closely, most people on this forum would not have thought much about.Indeed, I do have an attitude. But why not?

 

[Dmckay]

Let me put it this way. I'm currently research the passage. Thanks to a back ground in ANE studies, I have a good basic handle on the passage. But there's a lot I don't understand about it. And frankly, I was interested in what the first reaction was from people here. The "exegesis" was a bit of a dig, yes. I'm annoyed with (not anyone in particular) how some people on this forum have the entire bible figured out -- mainly by means of deciding something, then putting their hands over their ears and goin "laalalalalala." This is a passage that, if read closely, most people on this forum would not have thought much about. Indeed, I do have an attitude. But why not?

Probably the best answer I can give to your, "but why not have an attitude?" is this:


Philippians 1:27
"Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;"

Philippians 2:2
"make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;"

Philippians 2:5 "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

It is an occupational hazzard of those involved in ministry to come across as arrogant because of the confidence that one must have in their ability to communicate the message of Scripture when they stand in the pulpit. Or for that matter when they stand anywhere, in the place of Christ as His ambassador. Knowing that James warns that teachers shall receive the more severe judgment. If there isn't that confidence in their ability they can easily become shipwrecked in their ministry due to paralysis from fear.

Even the Apostle Paul had to be visited with the thorn in the flesh which the Lord instructed him was there to keep him humble. I have had many conversations with Pastors and Professors that I have worked with over the years about this very problem. It is usually manifest in their beginning to flatly make statements about the meaning of a portion of Scripture without explaining the reason for their interpretation. At times, there may be a legitimate reason for not doing so, such as, the explanation itself may be so detailed and involved as to detract from the message itself. Or the level of understanding of the hearers may be such that they become even more confused by the explanation.

The problem actually becomes more of a problem, when the teacher/pastor is of the attitude that the hearers should just accept the explanation or interpretation, "just because I say that this is what it means!" Now that is really a sign that the individual has a problem with arrogance.

Very early in my ministry I was fortunate to have my wife by my side to keep me from developing these kinds of habits. My problem stemmed from the fact that I am naturally very shy and didn't grow up in the church. I assumed that the majority of the people in the church grew up hearing the things that I was just learning and finding fascinating. So I would tend to leave out things that I just assumed that "everyone" already knew. I was also fortunate enough to have a homiletics professor who picked up on my tendencies, and advised me to, "study as if you were going to be teaching a room full of PhDs, but prepare your lessons/messages so that the 10 year old in the first row will understand."

How much detail do you want/need on the passage in question, and how soon do you need the information?

 

[justified]

How much detail do you want/need on the passage in question, and how soon do you need the information?

A full study of this passage would be at least 100,000 words (actually, I know someone doing her dissertation on it currently) -- I am just looking for how people with a conservative evangelical outlook on scripture read the passage and how they would approach it. There is no time frame.

BTW, I will reply to your other comments in PM soon. Thanks.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

This passage is a ritualized metaphor of the sin of Eve, which is a ritualized metaphor of the 'sin' (note the semi-quotes) of Lucifer. Good luck.

oldwiseguy

 

[Crazy Liz]

The best explanation of it I have read is that the ritual was intended to induce a miscarriage when a man suspected his wife of adultery, but did not have sufficient proof to convict her of the crime.

Since you are researching it in light of ANE evidence, I'm sure you won't need me to look up references for this theory. Was your purpose for this thread to discuss theories like this one?

 

[daveleau]

Mod Hat On>

Christianity has no room for prideful or snide comments- ever. If someone makes one to you, report it. Don't try to handle it yourself, because often people just react with more attitude. Scripture is explicitly clear that impatience or aggravation are NOT the ways to interact with fellow Christians. If someone closes their ears and their minds to other ideas, then we are not called to berate them, but to carefully (meaning: try to find a way that they will receive the Word) correct them and be patient. We are called to be meek, not prideful or speak with an attitude. I ask that each of you in this thread forgive each other for their indiscretions (perceived or actual) in this thread and move on with Scriptural speech. That means kind, loving, patient and with careful instruction.

Thank you in advance for heeding Scripture's call in curbing the path of poor attitude shown thus far in this thread.

In Christ,
Dave

<Mod Hat Off

 

[justified]

The best explanation of it I have read is that the ritual was intended to induce a miscarriage when a man suspected his wife of adultery, but did not have sufficient proof to convict her of the crime.

Since you are researching it in light of ANE evidence, I'm sure you won't need me to look up references for this theory. Was your purpose for this thread to discuss theories like this one?

Sort of. In that theory, what do make of this:

27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh* waste away, and she will become accursed among her people.

Like I said, I haven't got the passage figured out. But I see simply miscarriage as not enough to describe the effects of the water.

 

[FreezBee]

I want to know what it says,
how it means,
and how we should be uplifted by it.

Give me the background -- make this passage real to someone in the 21st century without losing the original intent of the passage.

Ok, thanks for the clarification





Think about the congruence:

God => Humans // Husbond => Wife

​

That is, in certain specific ways the relation between husbond and wife reflects the relation between God and humans. Now, the water made sacred by the priest contains the spirit of God and therefore will have different effect on the faithful and the unfaithful. It is similar to when God pours out his cup of wrath, the faithful will not be harmed, maybe even uplifted by it, but the unfaithful will wither and die.


In socio-cultural terms of the ANE, I do not know, but probably we would have to search for a similar ritual in other ANA cultures - the Assyrian probably being the best guess for a starting search.

In a way it all sounds to me like make-believe. If the husbond can believe in adultery without a trace of proof, then he should be able to believe in the working of the curse as well, and since it's just water, nothing spectacular is going to happen in either case


- FreezBee

 

[Dmckay]

This may sound a bit strange, but what do you mean by ANE? I am either not familiar with the meaning, or I am having a senior moment.

 

[justified]

It's just the standard abbreviation for "Ancient Near East."

 

[Morghaine]

This may sound a bit strange, but what do you mean by ANE? I am either not familiar with the meaning, or I am having a senior moment.

I didn't know what it meant either!

 

[Crazy Liz]

Sort of. In that theory, what do make of this:

27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh* waste away, and she will become accursed among her people.

Like I said, I haven't got the passage figured out. But I see simply miscarriage as not enough to describe the effects of the water.

I don't know. ISTM some kind of vague description intended to induce terror.

 

[Dmckay]

I was right, a senior moment.

 

[WAB]

I was right, a senior moment.

If you think its bad now... just wait awhile!

 

[WAB]

Mod Hat On>

Christianity has no room for prideful or snide comments- ever. If someone makes one to you, report it. Don't try to handle it yourself, because often people just react with more attitude. Scripture is explicitly clear that impatience or aggravation are NOT the ways to interact with fellow Christians. If someone closes their ears and their minds to other ideas, then we are not called to berate them, but to carefully (meaning: try to find a way that they will receive the Word) correct them and be patient. We are called to be meek, not prideful or speak with an attitude. I ask that each of you in this thread forgive each other for their indiscretions (perceived or actual) in this thread and move on with Scriptural speech. That means kind, loving, patient and with careful instruction.

Thank you in advance for heeding Scripture's call in curbing the path of poor attitude shown thus far in this thread.

In Christ,
Dave

<Mod Hat Off

Good advice... and the inclusion of "Mod Hat On" and "Mod Hat Off" leads to a question... does your personal opinion change according to whether the hat is on or off?

 

[Dmckay]

If you think its bad now... just wait awhile!

Thanks so very much for giving me something else to look forward to