Alpha Course : is it a cult?

wayseer · Jun 22, 2010

tadoflamb said:
You mean the 'great unwashed'?

The whole idea is for the Church to continually dumb down the laity into thinking the Church is actually interested in the education level of its congregations - stops people asking embarrassing questions.

If you really want to learn think about enrolling in a theological course - forget about the trinkets on offer by the Church like Alpha courses and Lenten studies. These just make the Church feel like it is doing something useful for the 'great unwashed'.

Willtor · Jun 22, 2010

wayseer said:
The whole idea is for the Church to continually dumb down the laity into thinking the Church is actually interested in the education level of its congregations - stops people asking embarrassing questions.

If you really want to learn think about enrolling in a theological course - forget about the trinkets on offer by the Church like Alpha courses and Lenten studies. These just make the Church feel like it is doing something useful for the 'great unwashed'.

I don't think it has to be either/or. Granted, I've only taken the one course, but I thought it was good. It wasn't a review of reformed theology since Karl Barth, but I didn't expect it to be. It served a different purpose.

wayseer · Jun 22, 2010

Willtor said:
I don't think it has to be either/or. Granted, I've only taken the one course, but I thought it was good. It wasn't a review of reformed theology since Karl Barth, but I didn't expect it to be. It served a different purpose.

Point taken - but Sunday School is useful too.

I often think why God allowed death. I have an answer. If we did not die we would never let our children to grow up. They would have to kill their parents in order to reach full maturity.

I think it is time to kill off the institutionalized church so the rest of us can grow up in Christ.

Willtor · Jun 22, 2010

wayseer said:
Point taken - but Sunday School is useful too.

I often think why God allowed death. I have an answer. If we did not die we would never let our children to grow up. They would have to kill their parents in order to reach full maturity.

I think it is time to kill off the institutionalized church so the rest of us can grow up in Christ.

There's potential in all of it. I certainly agree that the potential is not realized much of the time, though. I don't need any convincing of _that_. On the other hand, I've seen good in the institutionalized church. Every now and then God raises up a Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Desmond Tutu, or a Hans Kung through it. I don't suppose that the Sunday School class that Bonhoeffer taught while he was a student at Union Theological Seminary was very much like the Sunday School classes that might otherwise cause me to agree.

tadoflamb · Jun 22, 2010

wayseer said:
The whole idea is for the Church to continually dumb down the laity into thinking the Church is actually interested in the education level of its congregations - stops people asking embarrassing questions.

If you really want to learn think about enrolling in a theological course - forget about the trinkets on offer by the Church like Alpha courses and Lenten studies. These just make the Church feel like it is doing something useful for the 'great unwashed'.

I guess. My experience, being a convert to the Catholic Church, is that the Church doesn't shy away from the tough questions. At least it managed to answer my tough questions.

I was only interested in Alpha because my protestant neighbor wanted to get me enrolled. (I must have appeared to be unwashed) After my tertiary inquiry, I decided it was just another protestant program and it was best for me to stay away from it. From what I gather from this thread, Alpha isn't that bad and can be modified for a Catholic audience.

Also, in Catholicism we don't have a lot of programs. What we do have is the daily mass. I've found attending mass regularly makes for excellent catechis and has been ever since Jesus celebrated mass with the two disciples on the way to Emmaus.

wayseer · Jun 22, 2010

Willtor said:
There's potential in all of it. I certainly agree that the potential is not realized much of the time, though. I don't need any convincing of _that_. On the other hand, I've seen good in the institutionalized church. Every now and then God raises up a Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Desmond Tutu, or a Hans Kung through it. I don't suppose that the Sunday School class that Bonhoeffer taught while he was a student at Union Theological Seminary was very much like the Sunday School classes that might otherwise cause me to agree.

I'm not sure about the theological attainments of Desmond Tutu, but both Kung and Bonhoeffer had impeccable theological credentials.

The Nazi regime killed Bonhoeffer, the Church silenced Kung, only Tutu seems to have escaped.

What's with Sunday School? These are three tough Christians. They had more going for them than present stuff that the Church dishes up for our consumption.

wayseer · Jun 22, 2010

tadoflamb said:
I guess. My experience, being a convert to the Catholic Church, is that the Church doesn't shy away from the tough questions. At least it managed to answer my tough questions.

The evidence tends to suggest otherwise. The Church, and I don't just mean the Catholic church, has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

It took how long for the Church to apologize for the atrocities committed by the Church during the nazi regime? It took how long for the Church to recongize it had to deal with pedophiles in its midst? What about women and gay bishops?

The Church has not tackled the 'tough' questions, it's avoided them like the plague.

Also, in Catholicism we don't have a lot of programs. What we do have is the daily mass. I've found attending mass regularly makes for excellent catechis and has been ever since Jesus celebrated mass with the two disciples on the way to Emmaus.

But I'm wondering if you really know the full depth of the theological implications of the Mass. You will not learn that in Alpha course or the like.

As I have said, the Church has kept the laity nailed down for nigh on two thousand years. Beware, the lid on the coffin is lifting!

ebia · Jun 22, 2010

wayseer said:
I'm not sure about the theological attainments of Desmond Tutu, but both Kung and Bonhoeffer had impeccable theological credentials.

The Nazi regime killed Bonhoeffer, the Church silenced Kung, only Tutu seems to have escaped.

What's with Sunday School? These are three tough Christians. They had more going for them than present stuff that the Church dishes up for our consumption.

+Tutu's field isn't scholarship but living out the faith - the effectiveness of the Truth and Reconcilliation commission is probably the greatest Kingdom of God miracle of the 20th century. Nevertheless he has some quite remarkable stuff to say about relationship, forgiveness, etc.

"God has a Dream" and "No Future without Forgiveness" are well worth reading - though the later is hard to get in Australia (a country that definitely needs to read it). I think you'd appreciate both (enjoy is the wrong word for the latter, its quite horrifying at times).

Willtor · Jun 22, 2010

wayseer said:
I'm not sure about the theological attainments of Desmond Tutu, but both Kung and Bonhoeffer had impeccable theological credentials.

The Nazi regime killed Bonhoeffer, the Church silenced Kung, only Tutu seems to have escaped.

What's with Sunday School? These are three tough Christians. They had more going for them than present stuff that the Church dishes up for our consumption.

You mentioned Sunday School. I may have misunderstood your intention, though. I thought you were pointing to it as an example of something with modest moral benefits at best.

As to the three individuals mentioned -- yes! And as much as I would point them out as exemplary individuals, I would also point out that the Holy Spirit worked through the institution of the church to raise them up.

tadoflamb · Jun 22, 2010

wayseer said:
The evidence tends to suggest otherwise. The Church, and I don't just mean the Catholic church, has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

It took how long for the Church to apologize for the atrocities committed by the Church during the nazi regime? It took how long for the Church to recongize it had to deal with pedophiles in its midst? What about women and gay bishops?

The Church has not tackled the 'tough' questions, it's avoided them like the plague.

I guess that's all understandable coming from someone who has found themselves outside and opposed to the Church.

Being inside the Church, naturally I have a different perspective.

But I'm wondering if you really know the full depth of the theological implications of the Mass. You will not learn that in Alpha course or the like.

After seven years of attending daily mass, I'm starting to scratch the surface. I couldn't imagine repeating the experience in Alpha or any other protestant program.

As I have said, the Church has kept the laity nailed down for nigh on two thousand years. Beware, the lid on the coffin is lifting!

I don't know, I'm a member of the St. Vincent de Paul society and we're a lay organization. From my participation I've discovered just how empowered the laity is. Of course, we operate under the blessings of the Church which doesn't hurt.

But, good luck lifting that lid!

tadoflamb · Jun 22, 2010

Hans Kung is a dissident and a grouch, BTW.

wayseer · Jun 22, 2010

tadoflamb said:
Hans Kung is a dissident and a grouch, BTW.

For a dissident and a grouch he is theological ahead of the pack.

wayseer · Jun 22, 2010

ebia said:
+Tutu's field isn't scholarship but living out the faith - the effectiveness of the Truth and Reconcilliation commission is probably the greatest Kingdom of God miracle of the 20th century. Nevertheless he has some quite remarkable stuff to say about relationship, forgiveness, etc.

"God has a Dream" and "No Future without Forgiveness" are well worth reading - though the later is hard to get in Australia (a country that definitely needs to read it). I think you'd appreciate both (enjoy is the wrong word for the latter, its quite horrifying at times).

Agreed. My point was that generally the leading Christians get their throats cut one way or the other. Tutu seems to have thankfully escape that penalty.

wayseer · Jun 22, 2010

Willtor said:
You mentioned Sunday School. I may have misunderstood your intention, though. I thought you were pointing to it as an example of something with modest moral benefits at best.

As to the three individuals mentioned -- yes! And as much as I would point them out as exemplary individuals, I would also point out that the Holy Spirit worked through the institution of the church to raise them up.

Indeed. But it is also the Church that silences many - one way or another.

My point has been not to necessarily pick out certain individuals but to demonstrate that relying on Sunday School and confirmation classes hardly define 'education' in the 21st century. I know there are attempts at lifting the standard and the Alpha course in one of a number. But these are band-aids attempts.

The average atheist, Muslim or Buddhist can argue their case in a far more educated manner than the average Christian can argue Christianity. I think it's time to raise the bar and get some serious education under way.

wayseer · Jun 22, 2010

tadoflamb said:
I guess that's all understandable coming from someone who has found themselves outside and opposed to the Church.

Being inside the Church, naturally I have a different perspective.

Where do you get the idea I am 'outside' of the Church? (Theologically, no Christians could be 'outside' the Church - they ARE the church).

After seven years of attending daily mass, I'm starting to scratch the surface.

A sad indictment on the Church. Where, or where, is the teaching? Why should we be left to wander in the dark. Will sometime please turn on the light?

I don't know, I'm a member of the St. Vincent de Paul society and we're a lay organization. From my participation I've discovered just how empowered the laity is. Of course, we operate under the blessings of the Church which doesn't hurt.

Indeed and there are many such opportunities. But try asking a few questions.

But, good luck lifting that lid!

It's lifting itself. Does not need my help.

tadoflamb · Jun 22, 2010

wayseer said:
For a dissident and a grouch he is theological ahead of the pack.

Pack......don't wolves run in those?

tadoflamb · Jun 22, 2010

wayseer said:
Where do you get the idea I am 'outside' of the Church? (Theologically, no Christians could be 'outside' the Church - they ARE the church).

That's one way to look at it. There's also the visible/institutional Church and that's the one you've inadvertantly found yourself on the outs with.

A sad indictment on the Church. Where, or where, is the teaching? Why should we be left to wander in the dark. Will sometime please turn on the light?

Daily mass is a gift from God. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Fireinfolding · Jun 22, 2010

tadoflamb said:
Pack......don't wolves run in those?

Cigarettes come in those too

tadoflamb · Jun 22, 2010

Fireinfolding said:
Cigarettes come in those too

And so do theologians.

Fireinfolding · Jun 22, 2010

tadoflamb said:
And so do theologians.

Nevr heard that one before, but ok

Alpha Course : is it a cult?

Well-Known Member

Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

Well-Known Member

Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

no identificado

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Contributor

Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

no identificado

no identificado

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

no identificado

no identificado

Well-Known Member

no identificado

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency