All this for a statue?

tadoflamb said:

This doesn't really prove anything. I may bow or kneel before the Blessed Sacrament in adoration, which is the same as worship and is reserved only for God. On the other hand I may kneel before a statue of the Blessed Mother and pray a rosary which is veneration. While both actions have the same outside appearance, interiorly one is worship and the other is not.

Much of the argument against the practice of veneration depends on the critics assumption that they know what's going on in our hearts.

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I am just posting a scripture with a definition to UJF containing an example of the word veneration. Though, if I just looked upon another man (not my husband) unto lust after him (not commiting the act of adultery physically) I'd still be commiting adultery in my heart right? (God knows the heart) Nevertheless if I just prostituted myself with no lust in my heart but gave my body to it would that be more acceptable?

Sorta like if I didnt have it in my heart, would it be considered ok then?

tadoflamb said:

This doesn't really prove anything. I may bow or kneel before the Blessed Sacrament in adoration, which is the same as worship and is reserved only for God. On the other hand I may kneel before a statue of the Blessed Mother and pray a rosary which is veneration. While both actions have the same outside appearance, interiorly one is worship and the other is not.

Much of the argument against the practice of veneration depends on the critics assumption that they know what's going on in our hearts.

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^^(emph. mine)



Why do we bother repeating this over and over and over?

Does the old adage, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it must be a duck" apply here, folks?

"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [proskunei] him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man."

Why do those who claim to be Peter's successors offer their hands or rings or feet to be kissed and seem to enjoy being carried about on the shoulders of men, just like those idols the churches parade through the streets ?

christianmomof3 said:

I wonder if that is mostly the culture - whether it be the Spanish culture or the Catholic culture or a mix of both.
Because in the US, a large statue of Jesus was recently struck by lightening and burnt to the ground, but I don't think anyone came and brought flowers to the site.
Big Butter Jesus on fire | Lightning strikes Solid Rock Church
Landmark 'Touchdown Jesus' statue catches fire after lightning strike :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Nation
That statue was at a non-denom church rather than a Catholic one. Perhaps if it had been a Catholic church the reactions would have been different?

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well think of it like this. What would your reaction, or even the reaction of many Christians if there was a man that was buring bibles. Now it's not the paper being burned that we would be upset with and be outraged over. But what the Bible represents.

Also the same when a Church burns down. it's not the wood being lost we mourn but what the Church represents, the House of the Lord.

so in this case it's not the materials that make up the statue but what that statue represents.

Tyndale said:

"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [proskunei] him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man."

Why do those who claim to be Peter's successors offer their hands or rings or feet to be kissed and seem to enjoy being carried about on the shoulders of men, just like those idols the churches parade through the streets ?

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Maybe, because he was worshiping St. Peter instead of venerating him.

Which both can have the same outward appearance as it has already been posted.

Who wouldn't be outraged when a person destroyed a pictured of a loved one?

lionroar0 said:

Maybe, because he was worshiping St. Pete instead of venerating him.

Which both can have the same outward appearance as it has already been posted.

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So Peter read his mind? and Cornelius's actions had nothing to do with it?

Lord open their eyes!

christianmomof3 said:

I wonder if that is mostly the culture - whether it be the Spanish culture or the Catholic culture or a mix of both.
Because in the US, a large statue of Jesus was recently struck by lightening and burnt to the ground, but I don't think anyone came and brought flowers to the site.
Big Butter Jesus on fire | Lightning strikes Solid Rock Church
Landmark 'Touchdown Jesus' statue catches fire after lightning strike :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Nation
That statue was at a non-denom church rather than a Catholic one. Perhaps if it had been a Catholic church the reactions would have been different?

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One was destroyed by nature. One was destroyed by a person intent on destroying the statue.

Tyndale said:

So Peter read his mind? and Cornelius's actions had nothing to do with it?

Lord open their eyes!

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Reading hearts is a gift of the Spirit. St. Peter was an Apostle.

Yes Lord open THEIR eyes.

lionroar0 said:

Reading hearts is a gift of the Spirit. St. Peter was an Apostle.

Yes Lord open THEIR eyes.

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read the passage, Peter didn't even know why he was sent for. Only in v 34 did Peter understand why he was invited by Cornelius.

If Peter were alive today and seen all those people bowing down to the Pope, what would he say?

God spake by the prophets multiplying visions and used similtudes by the ministry of the prophets. The law having a shadow of the good things to come but not the very image of things speaks of the same also as it pertains to the ark itself

Jerm 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Heb 9:3-8 Speak of the Holy Ghost's signification of the above as well.

Tyndale said:

read the passage, Peter didn't even know why he was sent for. Only in v 34 did Peter understand why he was invited by Cornelius.

If Peter were alive today and seen all those people bowing down to the Pope, what would he say?

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Acts 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

The Peter we know

Unashamed Jesus Freak said:

Does the old adage, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it must be a duck" apply here, folks?

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No.

Like I said, the same posture I assume if I'm venerating the Blessed Mother is the same posture I use when worshiping the Blessed Sacrament. There is a difference.

I know what I'm doing and I'm certainly not worshiping a statue.

White is a shade of Grey to the RCC church. They'll play around with word inventions so much that the hole will be too deep to get out off.

Been studying these idols everywheres... Theres definately inward ones (like covetousness which is idolatry and arrogance as well) and outward ones (as Paul observed) though alot of these were discussed on MrPolos house statues thread, which was pretty interesting to look into, learning as I went along...

Heres some verses

2Kings 17:12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

Now here ye have "seen them" (which were among them)


Duet 29:17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them)

Paul adresses the Godhead in particular here (in regards to mans art or device)

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

This is called the time of ignorance God winked at but now commands repentance here as Paul confirms...

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Same is shown here using the same wording ( yet unrepented of)

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

And here as well but "repented of" (which is to turn oneself from)

1Thes 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

John speaks in the same accord as well here...

1John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Repeating this verse again (first portion only)

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils,

In the context of jealousy in the NT contains idols and sacrifice to devils here as well...

1Cr 10:18-22 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrificeto idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

If you notice His Jealousy, images and idols which are vanities as well are often shown hand in hand

Duet 32:20 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Again...

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:


Jerm 8:19 Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?

Psalm 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

Images and His Jealousy again...

Psalm 78:58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.

Duet 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation]of them that hate me,

Theres an image of Jealousy as well...

Ezek 8:5 Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.

The first is shown the patern

Exodus 32:34 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods,O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

He uses the words "corrupted themselves" as it pertains to these things

Exodus 32:7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

Corrupting oneself (again) is also shown in the same accord with a graven image here....

Duet 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

As Isreal a golden calf (fourfooted beast) and yet is also expressed (as above) as it pertains to the "likeness" of male or female...

Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Paul adresses the Godhead (particularly) here...

Acts 12:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Which answers in the likeness of anything that is in "heaven above" here

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

Wherein again here...(Jealousy is shown)

Duet 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

He will not praise these things

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Duet 29:17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them)

Now here is what I am looking at (the way its worded)

Jerm 7:4-10 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these. For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour; If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever....Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?

Concerning Baal (in the above) and in the NT as it pertains to Elijahs appeal against Isreal to God it says...

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Though, even in respect to Belial as well which means 1) worthlessness a) worthless, good for nothing, unprofitable, base fellow b) wicked c) ruin, destruction (construct)

In this case the temple of God (which we are) with Belial (or idols) in that respect here...

2Cr 6:15-17 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Which brings me to here (speaking of what God has done in Christ)

Isaiah 52:10-12 The LORD hathmade bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Still looking at these things till ordered up much better, but theres a patern you can see from the OT in the book of revelation speaking in the same accord in various places. But theres definately idols one sets up in the heart as I posted on elsewhere as well, and those which can be seen (touched) and bowed unto in respect to them.

But this is interesting...

Jerm 51:7 Every man is brutish by his knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

And yet here ...

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

No wonder it only says...

...which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Says nothing about the speaking part ever notice that? lol

Essentially this is just going to go around in circles: The post-reformation churches will say that any kind of bowing/veneration is idolatry; while the pre-reformation churches will say that it is only idolatry if the actions are accompanied by worship and that there is a distinction between veneration and worship.
It all comes down to whether you trust the interpretations of the Reformers or the Church Fathers.

addo said:

Hello and may God bless you,

I live in Spain (at the moment) and recently I've seen some ... interesting news on TV (and other sources). It's about the statue of Jesús del Gran Poder, in Sevilla (it's kept in the Basilica del Gran Poder; I don't know the name in English; you can find more information here, here or here). And I want to share with you these ... interesting news.

Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find any sources in English, so I only have them in Spanish. You can see sites like this one or this one which has articles about it. In the rest I'll post videos. Here are some videos on YouTube:
Detenido por arrancarle un brazo al Gran Poder
Agresión a Jesús del Gran Poder
A man came and basically started throwing punches and kicking the statue of Jesus and finally breaking it's arm. The whole arm came down but they repaired it finally. In the next video, at the end, the man says that he is Jesus Christ (Jesucristo, in Spanish), and that's why he did it. Of course he's nuts, but I want to comment on another aspect.
Libertad sin cargos por atacar el Gran Poder
I want to concentrate on the reaction of the crowd. Here you can find the official news on La Sexta|Noticias (News), a Spanish channel.

laSexta|Noticias VIDEO #1 (it should be noted that here is the news exactly like in VIDEO #2, plus some more; just that here you don't have to look for min. 17, which is an advantage)
laSexta|Noticias VIDEO #2 (in this video the whole news is there; it's about 40 minutes; go to minute 17:44 and the news about the statue lasts until 19:25.

What I will talk is about the second video (but on the first video are exactly the same news). The statue has been repaired and people started bringing flowers to it (as you see on the video) and people also came to kiss it's hand. I'll show some quotes of the second video (remember to skip to minute 17:44... by the way, I think I should tell you this: try to drag that white thing to minute 17:44 and not simply click where minute 17:44 is; it won't work and is annoying, so remember to drag it). These are some quotes (from VIDEO #2):

"desde las 6 y media de la mañana van haciendo cola para besar la mano del señor que acaba de recuperar su brazo" (Min 18:10) approximate translation: "from 6:30 a.m. [they] are making queue to kiss the hand of the lord [referring to the statue] that just recovered his arm" Hmmm ... isn't this bizarre? A statue of Jesus lost it's arm and after it recovered (the arm) they are making queue to kiss it's hand! Now seriously ... I have a feeling that this is (terribly) wrong.

"dándole la gracias que no le ha pasado nada y [estoy] muy contenta" (Min. 18:28) approx. transl.: "giving thanks [obviously in prayer] that nothing [bad, in the sense that worse than the arm; now he's fully recovered, and the woman gives thanks that no permanent damage was done] happened to him [the statue of Jesus] and am very happy". Quite strange. The woman was giving thanks (to God obviously) that nothing serious happened to the statue! Isn't this very strange? Why does she care so much about a simple statue? What would have happened if the statue would've burned to ashes? If they did all this for a simple arm (that finally was repaired), what would've happened if the would've been destroyed completely?

"flores, rezos y mucha devoción para el Señor del Gran Poder que ha conseguido recuperarse en tiempo récord" (Min. 18:38) approx. transl.: "flowers, prayers and a lot of devotion for "el Señor del Gran Poder" (a literal translation would be: the Lord of the Great Power, I dunno if that's the correct translation but it is the literal one) which recovered himself in a record time". First note that they bring flowers, pray and are very devoted to a statue (of Jesus Christ). And the last part is that it says the statue recovered itself! In Spanish, in recuperarse, the -se at the end, means, in this case, that you do it do yourself. Anyway, in this case, it basically means that the statue recovered itself (or should I better say that "he recovered himself"?)

(woman crying) "[I don't understand what she's saying in this part]... me da mucha pena que le hagan esto ...porque no le hace daño a nadie..." (Min. 18:50) I don't think a literal translation would be a good idea. What she's saying is that she is very sorry because this happened and she doesn't understand why "because he [the statue] doesn't hurt anybody". First of all ... this woman is crying just because the statue lost its arm! Do you find this normal? And then she says that "he doesn't hurt anybody"? But how can it hurt anyone (physically) in the first place? Again, I just can't understand why is this woman crying just because a statue lost its arm. And this woman is speaking about the statue when she says "he didn't hurt anybody", because she doesn't understand how could he (the attacker) do this to it (the statue) since it didn't "hurt anybody".

"...hoy en besamanos para que los fieles lo puedan sentir más cerca" (Min. 18:10) I don't think a literal translation here would be recommended. What this is saying is that the statue today (when the report was made) is in a place were believers can kiss it's hand so that they "could feel him closer". Now this is obviously wrong. Why would anyone want to kiss the hand of the statue to feel it closer (in case it is referring to the statue)? If it is referring to Jesus, how is kissing the hand of a supposed statue of Him bringing the believer closer to Him? But I'm pretty sure they were referring to the statue.

"... una emoción tan grande que no puedo expresarla con palabras, sino con el corazón" (Min. 19:14) "such a strong emotion that [I dunno who is she referring to, so I don't know who's doing the action, but I believe herself] cannot express it with words, but with the heart" Why is somebody having "such a great emotion" when a statue lost it's arm? Or is it that they don't see it just as a simple statue?

Another important thing you can see in VIDEO #1 there are queues of hundreds and if not thousands of people waiting to see it, bring flowers to it, kissing it, etc.

This statue, in case you didn't know, is seen as "Lord of Sevilla", if I'm not mistaken.
_____________________

Am I the only one who sees this behavior terribly wrong? I mean... people did all this just for a statue? The following statue lost an arm and they did all this just for that?



In my opinion, this just shows that statues mean more to the general (Catholic) believer than we think.

Sorry mods if I put this thread in the wrong place.

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No, this is not about the "general Catholic believer". This is the way people are in Andalucía and more so in Sevilla. The statues, more than religious symbols, are also part of the local identity.

People from Agaete, on my island, cried when they saw a piece of rock in the shape of a finger fell onto the sea. It was part of their identity.

Sevillians can be a real pain making fun out of everything and they are quite passionate guys in everything they do. Most of the people in the crowds, you aren't going to see them in Mass, and you should know that.

(And by the way, the Sexta does not waste an opportunity to make fun of religion in general or Christianity in particular)