All things

chad kincham · Nov 12, 2020

Dave L said:
I have several points. One is if God causes a person to murder another (as depicted in scripture) God is not sinning. God cannot sin.

The point is, the God of Calvinism is the wrong God.

The God of Calvinism is the author of sin, because their version of God decreed the fall of man into sin.

Decreed the penalty of sin is damnation and hell.

Decreed most of mankind is predestined to hell by withholding from them the regeneration it takes for them to believe - then damns them for unbelief.

Decreed 1/3 of the angels would rebel, sin, and be damned - but provided no means of redemption for any of them.

Decreed every evil act, decreed every mass murder, decreed the holocaust, decreed WW2 with 70 million deaths, decreed American civil war with 600,000 deaths.

Decrees every disease, sickness, infirmity.

Ever notice that in the Bible, Jesus healed everyone from sickness, which scripture always says was an affliction from the devil?

Not an affliction from God, but from Satan.

To review: freewill is evident in the Bible.

Satan afflicts people, not God.

Cormack · Nov 12, 2020

chad kincham said:
Decreed every evil act, decreed every mass murder, decreed the holocaust, decreed WW2 with 70 million deaths, decreed American civil war with 600,000 deaths.

Decrees every disease, sickness, infirmity.

^^^^

Decreeing that some of his children empowered by his spirit would understand and accept the deep spiritual truths of John Calvin, while others (others equally as saved and just as loved) would be in a state of spiritual blindness and confusion towards Calvinism (or even hostility to his own truths.)

Decreeing every act of idolatry and each individual rejection of his own name.

Swag365 said:
A comedy of errors, truly.

Why not start a club based upon a Calvinistic reading of Ephesians 5:20. We can go around to rape crisis groups and survivor meetings to teach them the corrective nature of rape, praising god for “all things.”

Trapped in a dungeon for 30 years you say? Ooh praise him!

Sponge bathed by sweet corn Bubba in the prison showers? Ooh mighty are his works!

Ooh join me in this praise action people!

All Glory To God · Nov 12, 2020

chad kincham said:
Free will is blatantly evident in the Bible.

Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.

They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4

Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:

Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.

Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!

This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that:

Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.

Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).

The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, who draws us to Christ, is resistible, because of free will.

Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, (not by first being regenerated, per Calvinism) and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.

Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.

There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.

Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.

As Jesus said to them:

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

So you belive man can thwart Gods will?

Gregory Thompson · Nov 12, 2020

I never was into Calvin Klein, but apparently - this too is part of all things.

John Mullally · Nov 12, 2020

All Glory To God said:
So you belive man can thwart Gods will?

Absolutely - Yes!

God in His Sovereignty has given men a lot of latitude - even as stated by Jesus in Matthew 23:37 to thwart God's perfect will for a time. Here in Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus, being God, very emotionally says that what He wanted was not done and that there were dire consequences.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Even though Jesus cast out demons, He was not able to cast out mans rebellion leading to unnecessary tragedy in 70 AD.

Jesus called Satan the God of this world - Satan got that authority by Adam's sin. Jesus healed and cast out devils - He is not conflicted. Jesus never said it was God's will for some to retain their illness, much less demon possession. Although he came to destroy the works of the devil - the works of the devil still persist for a time due to mans sin. Silly Calvanism - God is not working behind the scenes to retain the works of the devil when Jesus came to destroy it.

Matthew 6:10 tells us God's perfect will in the Lord's Prayer. The Lord's prayer is itself God's Will as Jesus told us to pray it. Why would Jesus ask us to pray something that was not His Will?

Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

There is no sin, sickness, demon possession, or depression in heaven - so God's will is not being done on earth at this time.

Hammster · Nov 12, 2020

Cormack said:
The “for all things” in Ephesians 5:20 is clearly related to verses 16 and 17 (e.g. “making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.”) The all things are related in no way to a deterministic philosophy about God controlling everything.

If the context were to do with motorcycles, and I commanded you to “admire all things,” or even “give thanks for all things,” I’m clearly not saying to admire or give thanks for your neighbours hot wife. “all things” in context would mean motorcycles and the parts thereof.

Giving thanks for “all things” in Ephesians verse 20 is easily tied to the “every occasion” in verse 16. The entire context has everything to do with proper Christian conduct and nothing to do determinism.

That’s an interesting argument. Let’s see.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.
— Ephesians 5:15-21

So we give thanks for every opportunity (our time). What argument is there that the time isn’t under God’s control, and therefore something to give Him thanks for?

Hammster · Nov 12, 2020

Swag365 said:
The same thing that you do with "all men" apparently.

Well, I look at “all men” in context.

Liam Hayden · Nov 12, 2020

"This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that:"

Oh, the fallacy of equivocation of meaning. When the Reformed speak of The Elect they are referring to those of whom Jesus spoke of in John 6:44

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

NOTE: the word translated as "draw" is the term used to describe drawing water from a well, so it does not mean a general wooing.

PaulCyp1 · Nov 12, 2020

God is not "in charge" of all things, because He created humans with free will, the right to choose His will, or to reject His will and do our own thing. He wants each of us to freely choose to allow Him to be in charge of our life, because that will lead to our eternal happiness. But He doesn't force us to do so.

Mark Quayle · Nov 12, 2020

Michael Collum said:
God controls the Macro and lets the Micro take care of itself.

From God's POV, how can you guess at the dividing line? Is the difference between Macro and Micro not only in your mind?

Or maybe more to the point, where do you find in Scripture that God flies by the seat of his pants?

Mark Quayle · Nov 12, 2020

A_Thinker said:
IMO, a significant argument against this ... is that God says He is NOT the source of sin.

So, ... sin is NOT His decree.

Is saying sin is NOT His decree the same as saying he did not decree that sin be?

If he decreed that sin be, is that saying he is the source of sin?

A note before you answer: Sin is not like anything else in the universe.

Mark Quayle · Nov 12, 2020

NBB said:
That is transforming the bad in good like the bible says, but planning every sick action (include any nasty useless, sinful worthless action?) I don't think so.

You get to judge what to God is useless? Wow.

Nasty, worthless, yes. Useless? No. God has a use for precisely EVERYTHING.

Mark Quayle · Nov 12, 2020

A_Thinker said:
He says that it is NOT His will. Do you dispute Him ?

Jeremiah 19

3 ‘Hear the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Behold, I will bring such a catastrophe on this place, that whoever hears of it, his ears will tingle.

4 "Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents

5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind), ...

You seem to keep confusing His will with His plan. Dave L is playing with you, man.

One way to keep the ball in the air is to consider God's will as two-fold: His revealed will (command) and his hidden will (plan). The Bible refers to both. Don't let your words push your logic around.

Mark Quayle · Nov 12, 2020

A_Thinker said:
He never says that he hardened hearts as to make sin inevitable ...

Think of this: is there a way that something could have happened (but didn't) if God had nothing to do with it? What makes you think it "could have happened"?

OzSpen · Nov 13, 2020

Hammster said:
always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;
— Ephesians 5:20

If God has decreed all things that come to pass, it’s easy to understand how we should give thanks in all things. We may not always understand these things, especially the tragic, but we can still be thankful even through tears and mourning. We know that God’s plan will bring Him glory.

My question is for those who don’t think that God decrees all that comes to pass. How do you give thanks to God in all things if He’s not in charge of all things?

Hammster,

The NET Bible footnote to Eph 5:20 is a sober reminder of the Greek grammar and the need for sound exegesis to translate, ὑπὲρ πάντων (huper pantðn) : 'Grk “for all.” The form “all” can be either neuter or masculine, and an alternative view is “for all” referring to people. The context could suggest believers (“one another” in v. 19). In other places this Greek phrase occurs in the NT, it refers to people (1 Tim 2:6; 2 Cor 5:14-15)'.

You have accepted only one view that 'all' is neuter (all things) when it provides a completely different light when translated according to the context, 'for all people'.

Oz

OzSpen · Nov 13, 2020

Liam Hayden said:
"This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that:"

Oh, the fallacy of equivocation of meaning. When the Reformed speak of The Elect they are referring to those of whom Jesus spoke of in John 6:44

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

NOTE: the word translated as "draw" is the term used to describe drawing water from a well, so it does not mean a general wooing.

Liam,

Of what, then, does the drawing of John 12:32 consist? 'And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself' (NLT).

πάντας ἑλκύσω (pantas elkusð) = I will draw all. With Jesus' exaltation, how can ALL be drawn?

Oz

Cormack · Nov 13, 2020

Hammster said:
So we give thanks for every opportunity (our time). What argument is there that the time isn’t under God’s control, and therefore something to give Him thanks for?

Time is simply a measure of the duration of a thing, and God being a timeless Creator has no yardstick of time that’s applicable, there’s no action of being actively in control of time any more than I’m in control of the digits on a stopwatch after I’ve pressed the button setting the thing in motion.

“every opportunity” includes not just the measure of time involved but each and every God given gift leading into our opportunities, giving thanks to God for what’s of God regardless of our difficult circumstances (e.g. “the days are evil”) is part of the Christians hope and their mettle.

Although if we’re leaving Ephesians to boldly go where no men have gone before, into space time and other quantum weirdness, I’d save everyone a whole lotta reading and plead the fifth.

ON TOPIC: For the purpose of interpreting Ephesians 5:20 it’s not particularly important how God is Lord over time, Ephesians 5 is about Christian conduct and not God’s relationship to space time.

Trying to make this section of text about anything other than Christian conduct is an open and shut case of monkeying

with the meaning of scripture, being carried away with error and following a preferred invention from our favourite Bible schools, we’re all old and wise enough to know how the Bible treats that kind of monkey business...

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

tldr jk; quit reading Stephen Hawkins A brief history of time into Paul’s letter, he wasn’t writing weirdo stuff like that.

All Glory To God · Nov 13, 2020

John Mullally said:
Absolutely - Yes!

God in His Sovereignty has given men a lot of latitude - even as stated by Jesus in Matthew 23:37 to thwart God's perfect will for a time. Here in Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus, being God, very emotionally says that what He wanted was not done and that there were dire consequences.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Even though Jesus cast out demons, He was not able to cast out mans rebellion leading to unnecessary tragedy in 70 AD.

Jesus called Satan the God of this world - Satan got that authority by Adam's sin. Jesus healed and cast out devils - He is not conflicted. Jesus never said it was God's will for some to retain their illness, much less demon possession. Although he came to destroy the works of the devil - the works of the devil still persist for a time due to mans sin. Silly Calvanism - God is not working behind the scenes to retain the works of the devil when Jesus came to destroy it.

Matthew 6:10 tells us God's perfect will in the Lord's Prayer. The Lord's prayer is itself God's Will as Jesus told us to pray it. Why would Jesus ask us to pray something that was not His Will?

Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

There is no sin, sickness, demon possession, or depression in heaven - so God's will is not being done on earth at this time.

Sorry but you ran off from an important part of this conversation, which is what part God plays in creating evil. Let's pick up from there:

Isaiah 45:7
Lamentations 3:38
Amos 3:6

chad kincham · Nov 13, 2020

All Glory To God said:
So you belive man can thwart Gods will?

You mean like, God is not WILLING that ANY should PERISH?

Cormack · Nov 13, 2020

All Glory To God said:
Sorry but you ran off from an important part of this conversation, which is what part God plays in creating evil. Let's pick up from there:

Isaiah 45:7
Lamentations 3:38
Amos 3:6

@John Mullally.

Those quotes from Isaiah and Amos are clearly to do with bringing calamity upon rulers and wicked cities, they’re not about creating evil. Calamity, ruin, destruction, “evil,” they’re used as synonyms, most translators outside of the king James are aware of this.

Isaiah 45:7...

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Lamentations 3:38...

Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

Amos 3:6...

When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it?

Why would a trumpet sound in the ancient world (Amos 3:6,) as a warning, because of war. An easy principle to help know that the translation from Isaiah is accurate is to look at the opposites.

What’s the opposite of forming light? Creating dark, obviously. What’s the opposite of God bringing prosperity, material wealth etc. Moral evil? No, that’s clearly not a proper compare and contrast style of language.

A city being plundered and brought to ruin, disaster and calamity, they are much more appropriate and work in harmony alongside both the creation of wealth and the light darkness material.

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