All Things Talmud

Torah Lishmah · Apr 2, 2013

I have noticed that there are many misconceptions, as well as a general lack of knowledge regarding the Talmud [Oral Torah] here at CF. So, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread entitled "All Things Talmud." I have personally had many experiences with people who have a very strong, and negative opinion about the Oral Torah, but had not even read a single word of it. As strange as that might sound, it is actually a common occurence, for whatever reason. So, I have uploaded The Complete Babylonian Talmud [Soncino Edition] for your covenience. This way, we will all have the text book on hand in order to study, and quote from. The book is currently in the .pdf format, which requires Adobe Reader if you want to read it offline. If you don't already have the latest version of Adobe Reader, you can download it for free right here: Adobe Reader

If you need to have the book in a different format just let me know, and I'll take care of it for you. To read, or download the book simply click on this link: The Complete Babylonian Talmud.pdf

It may take a little bit to load, because it's an extremely large document with over ten thousand pages. If you cannot get it to load at all then simply download it as described below.

You can read the book online by saving that page in your favorites, but I strongly recommend that you download it, so you can save it on your computer. To download the book, look at the top right corner of the page, and click on the arrow button to the right, positioned next to the login form. It looks like this...

If you have any problems whatsoever with the above directions, just comment in this thread and I'll help you.

visionary · Apr 2, 2013

We should add this to our list of resources.

mishkan · Apr 2, 2013

Torah Lishmah said:
I have noticed that there are many misconceptions, as well as a general lack of knowledge regarding the Talmud [Oral Torah] here at CF. So, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread entitled "All Things Talmud." I have personally had many experiences with people who have a very strong, and negative opinion about the Oral Torah, but had not even read a single word of it. As strange as that might sound, it is actually a common occurence, for whatever reason. So, I have uploaded The Complete Babylonian Talmud [Soncino Edition] for your covenience. This way, we will all have the text book on hand in order to study, and quote from. The book is currently in the .pdf format, which requires Adobe Reader if you want to read it offline. If you don't already have the latest version of Adobe Reader, you can download it for free right here: Adobe Reader

If you need to have the book in a different format just let me know, and I'll take care of it for you. To read, or download the book simply click on this link: The Complete Babylonian Talmud.pdf

It may take a little bit to load, because it's an extremely large document with over ten thousand pages. If you cannot get it to load at all then simply download it as described below.

You can read the book online by saving that page in your favorites, but I strongly recommend that you download it, so you can save it on your computer. To download the book, look at the top right corner of the page, and click on the arrow button to the right, positioned next to the login form. It looks like this...

If you have any problems whatsoever with the above directions, just comment in this thread and I'll help you.

That's quite a project. What software did you use to produce such a volume of material? I have the Davka Talmud, and it limits me to copying two pages at a time.

ContraMundum · Apr 2, 2013

Torah Lishmah said:
I have noticed that there are many misconceptions, as well as a general lack of knowledge regarding the Talmud [Oral Torah] here at CF.

I notice that on every Jewish site as well.

Should start a thread on those too.

ContraMundum · Apr 2, 2013

visionary said:
We should add this to our list of resources.

It's free and a lot quicker at Amazon, for Kindle, if you want to add that too.

pat34lee · Apr 2, 2013

Torah Lishmah said:
I have noticed that there are many misconceptions, as well as a general lack of knowledge regarding the Talmud [Oral Torah] here at CF. So, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread entitled "All Things Talmud." I have personally had many experiences with people who have a very strong, and negative opinion about the Oral Torah, but had not even read a single word of it. As strange as that might sound, it is actually a common occurence, for whatever reason. So, I have uploaded The Complete Babylonian Talmud [Soncino Edition] for your covenience. This way, we will all have the text book on hand in order to study, and quote from.

I am one of these people. I cannot claim to have read much of it, and I don't plan on reading it. I also have strong negative opinions on such books as the koran, the satanic bible, and the book of Mormon for a few, and plan on reading none of them either. I know the histories of these books and enough about their contents to know they are false teachings disguised as scripture.

If you think the talmud was not set up as scripture, just think of the name: the oral Torah. That is why it claims the false pedigree back to Moses receiving it from YHWH; so that it has the same divine authority as Torah.

Lulav · Apr 3, 2013

It is necessary to have this information written down for certain things that are not explained in the Torah for future generations, especially since the Diaspora. It should be read as a commentary though and many men's opinions and perceptions.

It should not be put above Torah where it clearly is in opposition, and certain things in there regarding Gentiles need to be seen again, as some men's opinions and taken with a grain of salt, just like the raging hatred that spewed from the 'great' religious reformer, Martin Luther.

dnc101 · Apr 4, 2013

Torah Lishmah said:
I have noticed that there are many misconceptions, as well as a general lack of knowledge regarding the Talmud [Oral Torah] here at CF. So, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread entitled "All Things Talmud." I have personally had many experiences with people who have a very strong, and negative opinion about the Oral Torah, but had not even read a single word of it.

I havn't read much of it at all, although I suspect whenever I read in my Jewish Study Bible (JPS) I am getting a healthy dose of Talmudic interpretations. I don't feel negatively toward it, just like any commentary I pick up I always try to use a lot of discernment.

So, I have uploaded The Complete Babylonian Talmud [Soncino Edition] for your covenience. This way, we will all have the text book on hand in order to study, and quote from. ... To read, or download the book simply click on this link: The Complete Babylonian Talmud.pdf

Kewl. Thanks. Could be an interesting project.

Dan C

Hoshiyya · Apr 4, 2013

Thanks for posting!

Torah Lishmah · Apr 4, 2013

mishkan said:
That's quite a project. What software did you use to produce such a volume of material? I have the Davka Talmud, and it limits me to copying two pages at a time.

I have some Davka software too, and it only allows a single page to be copied, so yours must be a newer version I think. I found this copy online a few years ago, but I cannot remember exactly where that was. There are many internet sites with free e-books for download, so I believe it was one of those. You can pretty much find any text your looking for with a diligent search.

Torah Lishmah · Apr 4, 2013

ContraMundum said:
I notice that on every Jewish site as well.

Should start a thread on those too.

By all means feel free to do so.

Torah Lishmah · Apr 4, 2013

pat34lee said:
I am one of these people. I cannot claim to have read much of it, and I don't plan on reading it. I also have strong negative opinions on such books as the koran, the satanic bible, and the book of Mormon for a few, and plan on reading none of them either.

The Koran, the satanic bible, and the book of Mormon are not sacred Jewish literature. Grouping them together is quite bizarre on your behalf. It amazes me that Messianic Judaism insists it is a legitimate sect of Judaism, while at the same time rejecting it's sacred texts, and teachings. Far be it from me to challenge your willful ignorance. This thread was created for those who are interested in learning Talmud, and you clearly are not.

dnc101 · Apr 4, 2013

Torah Lishmah said:
... It amazes me that Messianic Judaism insists it is a legitimate sect of Judaism, while at the same time rejecting it's sacred texts, and teachings. Far be it from me to challenge your willful ignorance. This thread was created for those who are interested in learning Talmud, and you clearly are not.

I think it might save confusion and hard feelings to define some things now.

First off, Messianics as I'm coming to see are not unified on most any view of themselves. Not surprising as their pedigree is Judaism and Christianity, both of which are divided into sects which argue about as much as they agree on, at the very least. Put the two together, and ... well, you get the point I'm sure.

My view on the Jewish Oral Tradition is one which I find common amongst most Messianics I've met online or in person or read about. That is that it is commentary and not equal to scripture in authority. It is however commentary by people who were there, or at least a lot closer than later Christian commentators. This may be in conflict with Jewish beliefs, as I understand some put it at the same level of authority as scripture- you'll have to enlighten me/us about that though. At any rate, Messianics do not outright reject Talmudic teachings as far as I know. We just may not see eye-to-eye with you or each other on it.

In light of that, you might want to tell us what you mean by "learning Talmud." I'm certainly interested in learning about it- the differences in the Babalonian and the Jerusalem texts (I'm not even sure I got that right either, so you might start by correcting me there ); the way the Mishnah and Gemara are laid out, and why; historical perspectives; and some of what they teach. I suspect though, if you really want to teach the whole thing you'd better get your own forum here as it will be a huge undertaking, especially with this crowd!

And you should be prepared for some argument amongst ourselves making it relevant to what we believe, which will necessarily involve that elephant again- was Yeshua the Messiah. We could take that discussion outside your thread(s) on teaching Talmud, but the elephant would still be there and it's a big'un. Not trying to dissuade you or rain on your attempt to help; just pointing some things out that really should be too obvious to ignore.

Actually looking forward to what you have to say.

Dan C

pat34lee · Apr 4, 2013

Torah Lishmah said:
The Koran, the satanic bible, and the book of Mormon are not sacred Jewish literature. Grouping them together is quite bizarre on your behalf. It amazes me that Messianic Judaism insists it is a legitimate sect of Judaism, while at the same time rejecting it's sacred texts, and teachings. Far be it from me to challenge your willful ignorance. This thread was created for those who are interested in learning Talmud, and you clearly are not.

They are all sacred to those who follow them. That is why the grouping.

As I said, I know the history of the talmud and the general contents of it. If that is all it takes to prove that it is not sacred or even truthful, then why go deeper into it? Anyway, it is only sacred to one sect of Jews. The rest disregarded the oral law in Yeshua's day, and many still do today.

xDenax · Apr 4, 2013

I don't know that the satanic bible is "sacred" to anyone?

xDenax · Apr 4, 2013

pat34lee said:
Anyway, it is only sacred to one sect of Jews.

Who?

pat34lee · Apr 5, 2013

xDenax said:
Who?

The rabbinic Jews, which are the majority today. The Karaites never followed it, nor the Essenes or Sadducees. I don't know about the zealots. The Jews in Ethiopia followed a pre-rabbinic form of Judaism.

xDenax · Apr 5, 2013

pat34lee said:
The rabbinic Jews, which are the majority today. The Karaites never followed it, nor the Essenes or Sadducees. I don't know about the zealots. The Jews in Ethiopia followed a pre-rabbinic form of Judaism.

I think you are twisting the truth a little bit. You're trying to act as if it's almost an oddity.

pat34lee · Apr 5, 2013

xDenax said:
I think you are twisting the truth a little bit. Your trying to act as if it's almost an oddity.

Until the temple was destroyed, the Pharisees were only one of several sects of Judaism. None had a majority following among the people. The Saducees did not follow any oral tradition, and the Essenes had their own version of it. When the temple fell, the Pharisees moved to consolidate all religious power under themselves only. Codifying the oral traditions into the talmud was the major part of how they did it.

See: Jewish Sects - Second Temple Sects - by Yoseif Yaron

mishkan · Apr 5, 2013

pat34lee said:
Until the temple was destroyed, the Pharisees were only one of several sects of Judaism. None had a majority following among the people. The Saducees did not follow any oral tradition, and the Essenes had their own version of it. When the temple fell, the Pharisees moved to consolidate all religious power under themselves only. Codifying the oral traditions into the talmud was the major part of how they did it.

See: Jewish Sects - Second Temple Sects - by Yoseif Yaron

You need to be more careful with how you process the information you get from random sources. This guy actually calls the revelry at the Golden Calf and the Rebellion of Korach sects! To hear him tell it, every individual in Israel constituted his own separate sectarian movement.

He also treats all the various sectarian groups as though they are equal in numbers and influence. They were not, by any stretch. The Pharisees were far and away the most significant in influence and popularity. Why, even the Sadducean priests were mandated by Rome to perform sacrifices according to the Pharisaic rite! The Pharisees were normative, with Sadducees representing the wealthy and powerful class. The other groups were minority, to the point of being negligible fringies.

I don't know who this Yaron guy is, but his treatment is shoddy, from a historical perspective.

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