All predestined?

Peter J Barban said:

You are just making up stuff again.

Fact: God rejected Esau before he was born.
Fact: God chose Jacob before he was born.
Fact: God creates some vessels to be filled with wrath.
Fact: God creates some vessels to be filled with mercy.
Fact: This is "in order that God’s purpose in election might stand".

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Did you make up " God creates some vessels to be filled with mercy", or where do you find that in scripture?

Peter J Barban said:

You are so wrong that any who listen to you will be infected by your wrongness. You have a communicable error.

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Did God choose those who surrendered?
Did you have to humbly accept God's pure charity?

sdowney717 said:

He was unable to repent.
Esau fell short of the grace of God, scripture shows him as an example of that, so by inference Esau did not go to heaven, and there is only one other place to go.

You may have enjoyed some aspects of Esau at first if you had known him, but you would eventually have been worn down by Esau as was his parents and family.

Hebrews 12:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.

17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

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Where does it say: "Esau was unable to repent' since Esau did repent of his wanting to kill his brother?

bling said:

Did you make up " God creates some vessels to be filled with mercy", or where do you find that in scripture?

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You are deflecting your mistakes instead of admitting them. Deal with your mistakes first, then I will address your concerns.

No one has yet posted a scripture that ties salvation with election?

Scripture does not say whether Esau was saved or not so all these posts are philosophical musings.
Esau was a material man whilst Jacob was a spiritual man which is the reason God chooses (elected) Jacob to be the father of the Jews. Election = purpose. Salvation = condition. We cannot be elected to be saved - it is an impossible condition.

The flow of Romans Chapter 9 shows that Esau and Pharaoh were vessels that God created to be filled with God's wrath. The means eternal wrath in Hell.

Jacob was a vessel that God created to be filled with God's mercy. That means eternal salvation in Heaven.

These are important points in Paul's argument.

Peter J Barban said:

The flow of Romans Chapter 9 shows that Esau and Pharaoh were vessels that God created to be filled with God's wrath. The means eternal wrath in Hell.

Jacob was a vessel that God created to be filled with God's mercy. That means eternal salvation in Heaven.

These are important points in Paul's argument.

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You have taken a step too far. You see you are conflating wrath on earth with wrath in eternity.
In Pharaoh's case, he was too far gone to be saved anyway. He was surrounded by wizards and warlocks who were agents of Satan. Pharaoh could have still repented but he was raised for wrath in the natural. Same with Esau, being a vessel of wrath in the natural does not preclude mercy in eternity.
I probably haven't explained it very well. I will give an opposite example. Cyrus was raised up to defeat Babylon and set the Israelis free. Does this mean he automatically gets salvation in the eternal for what he was raised up to do in the earthly?
Just one more example. Samson was always led by his lusts and yet he still made the heroes list in Hebrews 11. Why? Because of his last act of faith.

The focus of Romans 9 is the Sovereignty of God. God chooses who gets mercy and who gets wrath, not based on anything we have done. That is the story of Esau and Jacob. This mercy/wrath decision is predestined.

If somehow, Esau was saved, then that was also predestined.

Peter J Barban said:

The focus of Romans 9 is the Sovereignty of God. God chooses who gets mercy and who gets wrath, not based on anything we have done. That is the story of Esau and Jacob. This mercy/wrath decision is predestined.

If somehow, Esau was saved, then that was also predestined.

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oh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Try again, you failed logic 101.

Steven Beck said:

oh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Try again, you failed logic 101.

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I seel these verses as fully consistent with the predestination of Roman 9.

We can only respond in faith if we have been prechosen by God to do so. We need God's help to believe. All deserve wrath but some are chosen for mercy.

This was worked out hundreds of years ago. You can fault Calvin for many things but he was a lawyer and his logic is brilliant, even today. Not only that but the Sovereignty of God is fully established in both the OT and NT.

Peter J Barban said:

You are deflecting your mistakes instead of admitting them. Deal with your mistakes first, then I will address your concerns.

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What specific interpretation mistake did I make?
Ro. 9 has to be taken in the context of at least Ro. 9-11, but better still is the whole context of Romans.
The Bible never says Esau was made for God's wrath, especially since he repented when Jacob returned?
The Pharaoh showed is unwillingness to change (repent) early on (and God would know if he would ever repent under any condition), so the Pharaoh did take on a lesser objective.

bling said:

What specific interpretation mistake did I make?
Ro. 9 has to be taken in the context of at least Ro. 9-11, but better still is the whole context of Romans.
The Bible never says Esau was made for God's wrath, especially since he repented when Jacob returned?
The Pharaoh showed is unwillingness to change (repent) early on (and God would know if he would ever repent under any condition), so the Pharaoh did take on a lesser objective.

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I already told you. Esau and Pharaoh are used as symbols of those predestined to be vessels of God's wrath. These are essential points of Paul's narrative. This is the natural meaning of this passage. To deny this predestination is to deny Paul's message of God's sovereignty.

Peter J Barban said:

I already told you. Esau and Pharaoh are used as symbols of those predestined to be vessels of God's wrath. These are essential points of Paul's narrative. This is the natural meaning of this passage. To deny this predestination is to deny Paul's message of God's sovereignty.

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That’s no different than debating Judas. They were used as Cyrus was used to accomplish the Father’s purpose. Symbolically we know what is meant by Esua (selling inheritance for a pittance) Pharaoh (that which holds the Father’s people in bondage) and Judus (that which betrays with a kiss) but that alone does not predestine their futures. It may define their predestination past and present but to judge before the time is biblically frowned upon.

devin553344 said:

Well if you are going to go with scripture and that idea of predestination then only the people at that time of Christ and in Ephesus are chosen, Oh and Paul included himself? Or did you have another scripture reference?

Ephesians 1:1-5

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

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First...what difference does it make to you? Seriously for consideration: What difference does it make to you?

Will the answer one way or the other change whether you will continue to believe in Christ for eternal life? If the answer is "no" then we can relegate this question to its proper place of a "disputable matter" that might make interesting dinner conversation but it otherwise irrelevant to what we're going to do for the Great Commission today.

The language of "election" and being "chosen" is definitely in scripture, and thus can't be ignored. But what is it to us?

To Paul's audience, "election" was a distinction between the God of Abraham and the pagan gods they'd worshiped to that point.

Their previous gods were fickle and impulsive. Their gods did no long-term planning, but made decisions on the fly. Their gods were unreliable, immoral, capricious. Zeus might favor you one day and turn you into a goose the next.

To those new Christians, Paul preached of a God that was not fickle or impulsive or unreliable. He preached of a God of eternal plan, and that they had always been part of His eternal plan, and that they would always be part of His eternal plan.

They needed to know that, they needed that measure of confidence in the Lord.

Jesus told us, "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." That is also an implication of selection.

What does that do for us? For one, it tells the evangelist that there are people out there who will respond to the gospel. The evangelist needs that measure of confidence that he will "not be ashamed of the gospel" (Romans 1:16), but that it will show results because God will cause it to show results, and God is reliable.

The problem comes when people who are not busy enough in their role in the Great Commission have nothing to do but banter theology.

One pastor has said, "Men find a button and weave an entire coat behind it."

Election is button, but we have to be careful what we weave behind it.

Peter J Barban said:

I already told you. Esau and Pharaoh are used as symbols of those predestined to be vessels of God's wrath. These are essential points of Paul's narrative. This is the natural meaning of this passage. To deny this predestination is to deny Paul's message of God's sovereignty.

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Esau, the Pharaoh and Ismael would have all been used by the Jews (and even the Jewish Christians) to show the superiority of the Jews over the Gentiles. Paul is his diatribe format would have used the examples Jews would use to show the “seemingly” unfair (unjust) advantage the Jews (vessels for a special purpose) had over the Gentiles (vessels with a common purpose), but in the end (chp. 9-11) Paul shows there is really no advantage to being a Jew needing Christ over a Gentile needing Christ.

Paul gives only two types of vessels and we know: both Jews (special vessels) and Gentiles (common vessels) can wind up going to hell (made for destruction), so the question is: how do vessels made in the image of the potter (with the potter’s mark) when they leave the shop become vessel destine for destruction? Anyone familiar with pottery knows if the pot can’t hold water any more it is useless, but not the potter’s fault.

Peter J Barban said:

I seel these verses as fully consistent with the predestination of Roman 9.

We can only respond in faith if we have been prechosen by God to do so. We need God's help to believe. All deserve wrath but some are chosen for mercy.

This was worked out hundreds of years ago. You can fault Calvin for many things but he was a lawyer and his logic is brilliant, even today. Not only that but the Sovereignty of God is fully established in both the OT and NT.

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Sorry but there is NO SCRIPTURE which backs that claim that we are chosen to respond in faith. ZERO.

Calvin was a murderer who never repented. He killed a man for not agreeing with his lousy theology. Calvin had no fruit. Why would you even consider theology form a fruitless murderer?

And lastly you had better pray that you have not been chosen for wrath.

Steven Beck said:

Sorry but there is NO SCRIPTURE which backs that claim that we are chosen to respond in faith. ZERO.

Calvin was a murderer who never repented. He killed a man for not agreeing with his lousy theology. Calvin had no fruit. Why would you even consider theology form a fruitless murderer?

And lastly you had better pray that you have not been chosen for wrath.

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I am going to bow out of this thread because the only steps left are repetition and abuse.

But as a going away note, I know that I have been predestined for mercy. I was chosen for salvation before the creation of the world. I am saved by the grace of God. Even the fact that I believe Jesus as my Christ is a gift from the Holy Spirit that I do not deserve.

Steven Beck said:

oh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Try again, you failed logic 101.

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The 2 Peter 3:9 verse is not about those who will never repent of their unbelief in Christ. Peter wrote his letters to the beloved who were elect to be saved. That God was not willing that any of them perish.
CONTEXT IS KEY,

2 Peter 3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder),
2 Peter 3:8 But beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, 9 (WHO ARE THE BELOVED ELECT) not willing that any 'of us' should perish but that all 'of us' should come to repentance.

The any and the all are the beloved to whom He writes which is those in the church, not those of the world.

Fits in perfectly with Christ saying this concept, that the Father gives to Christ His believers.

john 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
John 6: 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

SayaOtonashi said:

So I have seen this a lot on here forum. Some saying we are predestined and others say we aren’t. So are we all predestined to be in hell or heaven? Is it a lie that whoever believe in Jesus l? Whoever.

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God knows who will repent, but this does not mean He chose them to do so. Goo calls everyone to repent, and each of us has to respond by repentance.

If we interpret Bible in context, God did not choose individuals to redeem, as some people erroneously claimed. Ephesians chapter 1,2,3 explain predestination in 70 verses: It is corporate predestination, which means God offered redemption to Jews first, and then the Gentiles -- which together means everyone. God offers to redeem all, but in the context of the Scripture, each one must decide whether to repent and turn to Him. Predestination is so misunderstood because people are so awed by words such as "He predestine us" and fail to see context.

Ephesians was written to Gentile Christians. Speaking as a Jew, Paul identified with his people by using the adverb 'we' and 'us' to say how God first chose the Jews:

[Eph 1:4-11] just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world ... having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13).. Weren't the Jews the first to hope in Jesus?

Then when referring to the Gentiles, the apostle used the adverb "you" and "you who were Gentiles":

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth …... Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and “uncircumcised” ….. excluded from citizenship in Israel… (Eph 2:13) ..... For He... has made the two groups one... His purpose was... in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross… (3:18)... This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ."

Before Jesus atonement, the Gentiles did not have access to Jehovah. But after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles have access to God. This move has been pre-planned or predestined by God. Predestination just means to pre-plan something. More important is what did God pre-plan?

We know that initially Israel was the chosen people of God. After Christ's atonement, the apostles initially thought that God chose to save the Jews only. After Peter's vision, however, the Gentiles were allowed to believe too. But as more Gentile Christians started to outnumber the Jewish believers, the Jews resented it and insisted that Gentiles should observe Sabbath and circumcision. Jews also claimed that God had suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus, implying that Gentiles were less favored. Refuting such allegation, Paul said that God does not show favoritism between the circumcised and uncircumcised [Galatians 2:6].

In Ephesians, the apostle refers to Gentiles as the Elect [Eph 1], thus placing them on equal footing as the Jews (who are chosen). Elect or chosen is a status, it does not mean being chosen to be saved individually.

In the beginning -- before the foundation of earth -- God chose the Jews, but now the Gentiles are also part of the Elect. "Before the foundation of the earth" just means "initially". It is unfortunate that some people are so awed by the words "before foundation of the earth" and "predestination" because they do not interpret in context.

In Romans 9:11, God said He loves Jacob and hate Esau. God was referring to these 2 persons only, specifically, so how does this extend to chosen - and not being chosen - of everyone else? How does Romans 9:11 become a blanket statement ??? Seriously.

In Romans, Paul as a Jew saluted Israel's heritage, but he went on to say the new order is here, things have changed, get used to it.

Romans 9:18-23: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .... " While the Jews were shocked that God offered redemption to Gentiles, Paul said that God could choose to have mercy on Gentiles. It does NOT mean that God has mercy on some particular individuals and choose them. In the larger context of the Scripture, each one has to decide to repent and turn to God.

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... He who predestined, He also justifies" [Romans 8:29] means that God foreknew that He would offer redemption to the Gentiles. Although they used to be considered uncleaned by the Jews, however, after Christ's atonement, the Gentiles can choose to be conformed to Christ. They are also justified by faith in Jesus.

Also, take note that Jesus during his ministry never spoke about God chose individuals to be redeemed.

When seen in context, Scripture interprets Scripture well, by itself.

roman2819 said:

If we interpret Bible in context, God did not choose individuals to redeem, as some people erroneously claimed. Ephesians chapter 1,2,3 explain predestination in 70 verses: It is corporate predestination, which means God offered redemption to Jews first, and then the Gentiles -- which together means everyone.

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Actually, it doesn't. It means that the saved are among those peoples.

Also, take note that Jesus during his ministry never spoke about God chose individuals to be redeemed.

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And that's not necessarily correct to say, either. See John 10:27, for instance.