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Ajuna's tread

devotee

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Krishna points out to Arjuna that he must "kill" his realtives, that he has a duty to fulfill, and is being distracted by misunderstanding what life really is.

Does "kill" equate to "treading on people"? e.g., a shop attendant behaves rudely whilst serving a person, the person comments on that behaviour to shame the attendant.

How to "kill" selflessly?
 

MahaSudarshanChakra

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devotee said:
Krishna points out to Arjuna that he must "kill" his realtives, that he has a duty to fulfill, and is being distracted by misunderstanding what life really is.

Does "kill" equate to "treading on people"? e.g., a shop attendant behaves rudely whilst serving a person, the person comments on that behaviour to shame the attendant.

How to "kill" selflessly?

If Arjuna killed with the motive of destroying his enemies, for regaining the kingdom and the riches, it is considered a bad karma. If he wanted fame and indulged in the war with the intention of being renowed a great warrior, it is also a sin.

If Arjuna killed with the motive of detsroying the wicked, or saving others, it is considered good karma. Lord Krishna's teaching is that the feeling of "I killed the wicked. I redeemed the opressed" is also very bad and leads to further bondage due to the sense of doership involved. Irrespective of the motive, you cant assume doership for any good act - it is solely controlled by the Lord alone.

Arjuna is to become involved in the war only because

1. He is born in a warrior class, and it is his duty to fight wicked forces and be a saviour to mankind.

2. He has to assume that he does not do any of the killing, nor he has any ability or strength on his own, but all the killing and the power of destruction springs from the Lord alone, and it is only because of the Lord's command that he indulges in it. Arjuna is to consider himself a mere agent in the killing. Krishna is the marksman, Arjuna is just the arrow that obeys the order. He is also not to worry about the outcome of the war. Acting in this manner, the sin of killing will not get attached to him.
 
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devotee

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MahaSudarshanChakra said:
If Arjuna killed with the motive of destroying his enemies, for regaining the kingdom and the riches, it is considered a bad karma. If he wanted fame and indulged in the war with the intention of being renowed a great warrior, it is also a sin.

If Arjuna killed with the motive of detsroying the wicked, or saving others, it is considered good karma. Lord Krishna's teaching is that the feeling of "I killed the wicked. I redeemed the opressed" is also very bad and leads to further bondage due to the sense of doership involved. Irrespective of the motive, you cant assume doership for any good act - it is solely controlled by the Lord alone.

Arjuna is to become involved in the war only because

1. He is born in a warrior class, and it is his duty to fight wicked forces and be a saviour to mankind.

2. He has to assume that he does not do any of the killing, nor he has any ability or strength on his own, but all the killing and the power of destruction springs from the Lord alone, and it is only because of the Lord's command that he indulges in it. Arjuna is to consider himself a mere agent in the killing. Krishna is the marksman, Arjuna is just the arrow that obeys the order. He is also not to worry about the outcome of the war. Acting in this manner, the sin of killing will not get attached to him.
thank you...Does Arjua represnt all humans? Am I a warrior?

Is the shop attendant in my example wicked? If I shame them am I helping them be aware that this is not a way to treat people? Am I fulfilling my duty?
 
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MahaSudarshanChakra

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devotee said:
thank you...Does Arjua represnt all humans? Am I a warrior?

If you work in the military, police or some kind of law enforcing agency, you could call yourself a warrior.

devotee said:
Is the shop attendant in my example wicked? If I shame them am I helping them be aware that this is not a way to treat people? Am I fulfilling my duty?

No, we have no right to put anyone to shame. You could help others in many other ways. In this case you could convey your message in a polite way. How do you know that the shop keeper would change his ways just due to your aggression? He could even become worse.

Helping others spiritually is not anyone's duty, it is the responsibility of God, and people who have realized God. Without any direct knowledge of God and spirituality, you do not have any right to preach others or attempt to correct them. That is to say that, if your knowledge of the divine does not transcend the knowledge obtained from a book - how do you know that you are right in the first place? And how do you do know others are in the wrong?
 
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devotee

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MahaSudarshanChakra said:
If you work in the military, police or some kind of law enforcing agency, you could call yourself a warrior.



No, we have no right to put anyone to shame. You could help others in many other ways. In this case you could convey your message in a polite way. How do you know that the shop keeper would change his ways just due to your aggression? He could even become worse.

Helping others spiritually is not anyone's duty, it is the responsibility of God, and people who have realized God. Without any direct knowledge of God and spirituality, you do not have any right to preach others or attempt to correct them. That is to say that, if your knowledge of the divine does not transcend the knowledge obtained from a book - how do you know that you are right in the first place? And how do you do know others are in the wrong?
what is the point of me reading about Arjuna if he does not represent a person I am, and can become?
 
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srev2004

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devotee said:
what is the point of me reading about Arjuna if he does not represent a person I am, and can become?

because your are responsible for who are, not Arjuna...

Every person can become like Arjuna, if it's their wish to protect society at large and follow the eternal dharma. But Arjuna was just a human being who God revealed his message to. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let's not try to glorify or deglorify him. Arjuna was not a messenger of God or anything either, he needed guidance in a moment of severe internal conflicts in his mind. He needed to kno what the right thing to do was. And since it was his duty to protect society at large, he would even fight with his corrupt relatives to protect innocent strangers who were part of his kingdom. What God taught him was that do the right thing and be indifferent towards kin if they are doing wrong. And do it for the sake of doing the right thing, and not for the fruits you would receive out of it.
 
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MahaSudarshanChakra

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devotee said:
what is the point of me reading about Arjuna if he does not represent a person I am, and can become?

You cant become the president of the United States, can you? Not if you wish or want. You are what you are, and just that.

The specific example here is to show that each person should do his duty well, and without any personal attachment to the work for material and selfish gains. If your conditions in life are different, you are not supposed to emulate Arjuna by becoming a warrior. Just imagine what will happen if everybody in the world became a warrior...:)

If you are a soldier in the army, do you incur sin during wars? Definitely, if you think that "I am killing and my country is gaining and I will get promoted for killing the maximum number of enemies!".
 
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rahul_sharma

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There is Arjuna in everyone of us. Arjuna's confusions while performing his duties, his attachments, wordly desires, spiritual questions , desire to know answers are also parts of our everyday life. Yes, everyone of us is a Arjuna and everyone shall have a Krishna to Guide us. Every day is Mahabharata. Choose Krishna against ever other so called worldly strength and support. With Krishna by your side you shall win. During the battle, Arjuna was hurt, at times defeated and pained even though Krishna was by his side. So pain and suffering you will have to undergo as per your Karma, but with Krishna by your side you will finally win and also reach your ultimate goal which is Moksha.
 
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MahaSudarshanChakra

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rahul_sharma said:
There is Arjuna in everyone of us. Arjuna's confusions while performing his duties, his attachments, wordly desires, spiritual questions , desire to know answers are also parts of our everyday life. Yes, everyone of us is a Arjuna and everyone shall have a Krishna to Guide us. Every day is Mahabharata. Choose Krishna against ever other so called worldly strength and support. With Krishna by your side you shall win. During the battle, Arjuna was hurt, at times defeated and pained even though Krishna was by his side. So pain and suffering you will have to undergo as per your Karma, but with Krishna by your side you will finally win and also reach your ultimate goal which is Moksha.

How true..and well said.:)

In each one of us is a miniscule Arjuna. Arjuna is not just a warrior, but rather a very advanced Yogi. To how many of us does Bhagavan reveal himself as he does to Arjuna?

Arjuna is already very highly advanced by the time he is taught the Bhagavad Gita. What Arjuna understood from the teachings is not the same as what we ordinary mortals understand. At the climax of his realization, he is caught in the middle of pulls between the material and the spiritual goals. You need no less a person that the Lord himself to sort this crisis. This crisis will happen in the biography of every soul some day. Every soul will experience Krishna exactly the way Arjuna did. There are no short cuts, and no avoiding this crisis either.

As a spiritual model, Arjuna is worthy of emulation. As a warrior it is a materailistic angle, and we may be born in different circumstances.
 
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devotee

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srev2004 said:
because your are responsible for who are, not Arjuna...

Every person can become like Arjuna, if it's their wish to protect society at large and follow the eternal dharma. But Arjuna was just a human being who God revealed his message to. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let's not try to glorify or deglorify him. Arjuna was not a messenger of God or anything either, he needed guidance in a moment of severe internal conflicts in his mind. He needed to kno what the right thing to do was. And since it was his duty to protect society at large, he would even fight with his corrupt relatives to protect innocent strangers who were part of his kingdom. What God taught him was that do the right thing and be indifferent towards kin if they are doing wrong. And do it for the sake of doing the right thing, and not for the fruits you would receive out of it.
I have often read that Arjuna's experience is a guide to our living. I am confused as to the "selfless killing". What is meant by "killing" in our contemporary world? Is it rebuking others when they are rude, or trying to indimidate? If so, how do I rebuke selflessly?

e.g., I purchased a service attendant pointed his finger through my personal space almost to touching my top, to remark on the figures printeed on it. The action felt intimidating, there were other people around, I felt harassed and disrespected as a person and as a woman. I said "No, that's not it", took my goods and left, with their laughter in my ears.

Is rebuking others killing? If so, how to do it selflessly?
 
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srev2004

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devotee said:
I have often read that Arjuna's experience is a guide to our living. I am confused as to the "selfless killing". What is meant by "killing" in our contemporary world? Is it rebuking others when they are rude, or trying to indimidate? If so, how do I rebuke selflessly?

e.g., I purchased a service attendant pointed his finger through my personal space almost to touching my top, to remark on the figures printeed on it. The action felt intimidating, there were other people around, I felt harassed and disrespected as a person and as a woman. I said "No, that's not it", took my goods and left, with their laughter in my ears.

Is rebuking others killing? If so, how to do it selflessly?

selfless killing is when your profession is a warrior, and you kill not for your own gains but for the sake of defending the weak and oppressed if it's the last resort. Killing comes into play when your doing to to protect the freedom of your people, and not for the kingdom or it's riches. Anything that you gain intentionally after killing is not selfless killing.

a better term is selfless battle rather than selfless killing. For Arjuna's goal to be achieved he didn't have to kill or execute everyone, rather get the upperhand in the war until they surrendered.
 
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Skillganon

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srev2004 said:
selfless killing is when your profession is a warrior, and you kill not for your own gains but for the sake of defending the weak and oppressed if it's the last resort. Killing comes into play when your doing to to protect the freedom of your people, and not for the kingdom or it's riches. Anything that you gain intentionally after killing is not selfless killing.

a better term is selfless battle rather than selfless killing. For Arjuna's goal to be achieved he didn't have to kill or execute everyone, rather get the upperhand in the war until they surrendered.

How do you get upperhand in the war.

You mean fight to defense, not attack who is no endanger to you!
Anyway what you posted echoes, and to no offense to you'r belief, and act of a rightly guided man, or a prophet!
 
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srev2004

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Skillganon said:
How do you get upperhand in the war.

You mean fight to defense, not attack who is no endanger to you!
Anyway what you posted echoes, and to no offense to you'r belief, and act of a rightly guided man, or a prophet!

i don't understand what exactly you mean, but from the gist of it here is my explanation.

lets say skillgannon. You have been striped of your kingdom, and then your people oppressed. The people behind this are your kin. Lets say they have an army in the millions. You raise an army to counter them. To get the upperhand in war, would save millions of lives, since you wouldn't have to kill every single individual. Because it's is some warriors duty to follow their leader and it isn't their fault for fighting you. So to save from the loss of innocence, you want to fight strategically and get the upperhand. In other words, take out the ones leading the opposition and offer sanctuary for everyone who surrenders as an equal citizen.

if your righteous as a citizen, you have to equally righteous as a warrior. and being righteous doesn't make you a prohpet or any less human. We are all capable of it.
 
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MahaSudarshanChakra

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srev2004 said:
a better term is selfless battle rather than selfless killing. For Arjuna's goal to be achieved he didn't have to kill or execute everyone, rather get the upperhand in the war until they surrendered.

No, that is not the purport of selfless killing. Selfless killing is killing for no personal gains. It is not even killing in self defence. In Arjuna's case, there is almost no choice to get merely the upperhand, but to exterminate the wicked.

Pandavas had spent 13 years of torture in the forest, even at a time when they were very powerful and could obtain the kingdom by brute force. They simply decided against it solely because Yudhistira had given a promise.

After their hiding period, the Kauravas were supposed to return their kingdom back. The promise was not kept. Pandavas send a message saying that they would be just satisifed with five villages instead. But the enemy was not willing to give five pin-heads of kingdom.

Thus, Pandavas are left landless, homeless and to wander in the forest. Even then, they sent Krishna as messenger to make peace. The attempt fails due to the arrogant attitude of Kauravas. The war is a last resort in which Arjuna has a moral right to kill everyone and take back his kingdom.

Even so, the great souled Arjuna cracks down and refuses to kill anyone for the sake of his pleasures and even volunteers to retire to the forest. Bhagavad Gita starts off from here. Arjuna is a great soul, who has had the wisdom to know that killing is wrong under any circumstance, for personal glory. Krishna would not teach any person less worthy than someone like Arjuna, to whom all the wealth and riches are nothing.

The Gita is merely a message for the world. Arjuna hardly needs the message himself, who has already known the limitations of the material pleasures. If all warriors were to get sentimental and even ascetic like, who will punish the criminals? Thus Krishna seeks to just sort a little bit of confusion in Arjuna. Rest of the stuff is for the world, not for Arjuna. He knows them all anyway.
 
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srev2004

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MahaSudarshanChakra said:
No, that is not the purport of selfless killing. Selfless killing is killing for no personal gains. It is not even killing in self defence. In Arjuna's case, there is almost no choice to get merely the upperhand, but to exterminate the wicked.

Pandavas had spent 13 years of torture in the forest, even at a time when they were very powerful and could obtain the kingdom by brute force. They simply decided against it solely because Yudhistira had given a promise.

After their hiding period, the Kauravas were supposed to return their kingdom back. The promise was not kept. Pandavas send a message saying that they would be just satisifed with five villages instead. But the enemy was not willing to give five pin-heads of kingdom.

Thus, Pandavas are left landless, homeless and to wander in the forest. Even then, they sent Krishna as messenger to make peace. The attempt fails due to the arrogant attitude of Kauravas. The war is a last resort in which Arjuna has a moral right to kill everyone and take back his kingdom.

Even so, the great souled Arjuna cracks down and refuses to kill anyone for the sake of his pleasures and even volunteers to retire to the forest. Bhagavad Gita starts off from here. Arjuna is a great soul, who has had the wisdom to know that killing is wrong under any circumstance, for personal glory. Krishna would not teach any person less worthy than someone like Arjuna, to whom all the wealth and riches are nothing.

The Gita is merely a message for the world. Arjuna hardly needs the message himself, who has already known the limitations of the material pleasures. If all warriors were to get sentimental and even ascetic like, who will punish the criminals? Thus Krishna seeks to just sort a little bit of confusion in Arjuna. Rest of the stuff is for the world, not for Arjuna. He knows them all anyway.

you are more educated than me in the matter, i guess.
 
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