Aionion is not Eternal, Everlasting or Forever

jmacvols · Aug 25, 2005

apocatastasis said:
hi jmc. you wrote:

I think the following two New Testament words express the idea of eternality:

aphthartos and athanasia

I'm sure there are others besides aionios.

It's possible, I am not a Greek scholar. Aphthartos & athanasia have to do with immortality or incorruptible. How would you describe the universe as being infinite, or counting number infinitely using the words immortal or incorruptible? Is the universe immortal or incorruptible? How does one count numbers immortal or incorruptible?

apocatastasis · Aug 25, 2005

hi again jmac.

A similar verse Jn 3:36 says those that do not believe the Son shall not see life(salvation). "Shall not see life" means to never, at any point, see life.

I don't see the logic of your argument here. If the context of this verses concerns the coming age, then this would only mean that unbelievers will not see life in that age. Don't get me wrong, however, as this is not my position. My position is that this verse speaks of the eternal annihilation of the unbeliever which is in us all.

God's wrath abides upon him. Strong says abide-meno-means to remain, not to depart, to continue to be present, to be held, kept continually, in reference to time it means to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure.

I'd like to see Strong's proof for this assertion.

How would you describe the universe as being infinite, or counting number infinitely using the words immortal or incorruptible? Is the universe immortal or incorruptible? How does one count numbers immortal or incorruptible?

Hmm..I'm not sure that I see the concept of infinity in the Bible. I personally regard the concept as nonsensical. What I was suggesting is that the notion of eternality - that which transcends time -- is conveyed by the notions of immortality and incourruption.

jmacvols · Aug 25, 2005

apocatastasis said:
hi again jmac.
I don't see the logic of your argument here. If the context of this verses concerns the coming age, then this would only mean that unbelievers will not see life in that age. Don't get me wrong, however, as this is not my position. My position is that this verse speaks of the eternal annihilation of the unbeliever which is in us all.

Sorry, let me see if I can be more clear. As I see it, the verse says "shall not see life." Life here is used for eternal savaltion. I do not see eternal salvation as a 'coming age'. Age has limitation where eternal (infinity) would not. In other words, is salvation to last only an age?

You used the words "eternal annihilation", interesting. You put eternal in front of annihilation. Does this mean something that has been annihilated can return if it has not been 'eternally' anninilated?

Anyway, you said "eternal annihilation of the unbeliever which is in us all."

are you saying that once a person becomes a believer, his unbelief is eternally annihilated, he can never go back into unbelief?

apocatastasis said:
I'd like to see Strong's proof for this assertion.

I failed to note the word abideth in Jn 3:36 is in present tense, meaning continous, on going, in real time, unending.

apocatastasis said:
Hmm..I'm not sure that I see the concept of infinity in the Bible. I personally regard the concept as nonsensical. What I was suggesting is that the notion of eternality - that which transcends time -- is conveyed by the notions of immortality and incourruption.

I would say whatever is 'eternal' would transcend time. God is eternal, He is not bound by time, He is also immortal and incorruptible.

apocatastasis · Aug 25, 2005

hi jmac,

As I see it, the verse says "shall not see life." Life here is used for eternal savaltion.

This is your assumption. Is it not possible that Aionios is used to describe the life only insofar as it pertains to a specific period of time, namely the age to come?

I do not see eternal salvation as a 'coming age'.

Nor do I.

Age has limitation where eternal (infinity) would not. In other words, is salvation to last only an age?

I personally would say "no", although the possibility remains that Aionios Zoe refers to our life in Christ inasmuch as it pertains to the ages of the ages.

You used the words "eternal annihilation", interesting. You put eternal in front of annihilation. Does this mean something that has been annihilated can return if it has not been 'eternally' anninilated?

Yes, I think so. That which is destroyed can be restored. The dead in Christ themselves will return from destruction.

Anyway, you said "eternal annihilation of the unbeliever which is in us all."

are you saying that once a person becomes a believer, his unbelief is eternally annihilated, he can never go back into unbelief?

No, I am saying that, until we are perfected and inherit incorruption, we have unbelief and that the unbeliever in us will be eternally destroyed.

I failed to note the word abideth in Jn 3:36 is in present tense, meaning continous, on going, in real time, unending.

That it is in the present tense does not mean that the wrath will never subside or never fullfill its purpose.

I would say whatever is 'eternal' would transcend time. God is eternal, He is not bound by time, He is also immortal and incorruptible.

Indeed! And the notions of immortality and incorruption entail eternality.

jmacvols · Aug 25, 2005

apocatastasis said:
hi jmac,
This is your assumption. Is it not possible that Aionios is used to describe the life only insofar as it pertains to a specific period of time, namely the age to come?

I believe there is 4 or 5 places where aionios is used in the NT to describe something less that infinite, but in Jn 3:36 he says believers hath everlasting (anionos) life, and unbelievers will not see life. I believe the context of this verse shows the unbeliever will not see this everlasting life. I have debated this topic once before, I think the context should define how aionios should be defined, where it seemed my opponent wanted his theology to define what the word means.

apocatastasis said:
Yes, I think so. That which is destroyed can be restored. The dead in Christ themselves will return from destruction.

Is there a difference between destroying something and annihilating it?

apoctastasis said:
No, I am saying that, until we are perfected and inherit incorruption, we have unbelief and that the unbeliever in us will be eternally destroyed.

I am still not sure what you mean here, sorry. Are you saying a person cannot believe until he has been perfected and inherited incorruption, that is one cannot believe in this life, in his corruptible body?

apoctastasis said:
That it is in the present tense does not mean that the wrath will never subside or never fullfill its purpose.

How so? Present tense shows something that is occuring in actual time.

apoctastasis said:
Indeed! And the notions of immortality and incorruption entail eternality.

The inital argument was the use of the adjective aionion. Would you use the adjectives immortal or incorruptible to describe the vastness of the universe? How does either immortal or incorruptible describe that vastness.

apocatastasis · Aug 25, 2005

jmac, I am enjoying our exchanges.

in Jn 3:36 he says believers hath everlasting (anionos) life, and unbelievers will not see life. I believe the context of this verse shows the unbeliever will not see this everlasting life.

What of the context tells you this? By the way, I agree (in the sense that I think that the carnal nature will de destroyed forever), and am only presenting an alternative understanding which remains to be reckoned with. This alternative understanding, as I've noted in previous posts, is that the context is dealing with life and destruction which awaits believers and unbelievers in the age to come.

Is there a difference between destroying something and annihilating it?

Not in the sense that I am using the words.

Are you saying a person cannot believe until he has been perfected and inherited incorruption, that is one cannot believe in this life, in his corruptible body?

No, I am saying that we all have an unbeliving nature until it is destroyed when we inherit incorruption.

Present tense shows something that is occuring in actual time.

Agreed, but the fact that John 3:36 speaks in the present tense of the wrath of God abiding on the unbeliever does not imply that the wrath continues for all eternity. I do, however, agree that the wrath of God will forever destroy the unbelieving nature in all people.

Would you use the adjectives immortal or incorruptible to describe the vastness of the universe? How does either immortal or incorruptible describe that vastness.

No, nor would I use Aionios to describe the vastness of the universe. Could please define "infinity" as you are using the term?

jmacvols · Aug 25, 2005

apocatastasis said:
jmac, I am enjoying our exchanges.

I as well.

apocatastasis said:
What of the context tells you this? By the way, I agree (in the sense that I think that the carnal nature will de destroyed forever), and am only presenting an alternative understanding which remains to be reckoned with. This alternative understanding, as I've noted in previous posts, is that the context is dealing with life and destruction which awaits believers and unbelievers in the age to come.

You use again the term "age to come" about Jn 3:36. What "age" are you referring to? What do you understand "not see life" is reference to?

apocatastasis said:
No, I am saying we all have an unbelieving nature until it is destroyed when we inherit incorruption

Still uncertain what you mean; one can be a believer, but at the same time the believer still has an unbelieving nature and will have that unbelieving nature until he is raised incorruptible?

apocatastasis said:
Agreed, but the fact that John 3:36 speaks in the present tense of the wrath of God abiding on the unbeliever does not imply that the wrath continues for all eternity. I do, however, agree that the wrath of God will forever destroy the unbelieving nature in all people.

If God's wrath does not continue, then the word 'abide' should not have been spoken in present tense. In many places in the NT the Greek word for believe-pisteuo is in present tense, This means that when one begins to believe, he must continue to believe if he wishes to be saved, he cannot stop believing. This is why true belief is not a one time mental acknowledgement but a life long commitment and process, --be thou faithful unto death, Rev 2:10.

apocatastasis said:
No, nor would I use Aionios to describe the vastness of the universe. Could please define "infinity" as you are using the term?

Infinity would be going on on on without end, unlimited space or quantity; an apt description of the universe. I don't think immortal or incorruptible would describe the universe. They may describe continuous existence, but they do not describe infinite space or quantity. I checked, and I do not believe that aphthaptos or athanasia is ever translated as 'eternal'. Anyway, right or not, that is what I read by a Greek scholar on this subject.

apocatastasis · Aug 26, 2005

hello, jmac.

You use again the term "age to come" about Jn 3:36. What "age" are you referring to? What do you understand "not see life" is reference to?

Well, Jesus spoke of people not be pardoned in the age to come of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. What age do you think he had in mind. Although I tend to think that he had in mind the age of the Messianic Reign, I remain open on this.

Still uncertain what you mean; one can be a believer, but at the same time the believer still has an unbelieving nature and will have that unbelieving nature until he is raised incorruptible?

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

If God's wrath does not continue, then the word 'abide' should not have been spoken in present tense.

It does presently continue. But this does not entail that it will continue forever. But granted that it does continue forever, could this not simply mean that the effects of God's wrath are irreversible?

In many places in the NT the Greek word for believe-pisteuo is in present tense, This means that when one begins to believe, he must continue to believe if he wishes to be saved, he cannot stop believing. This is why true belief is not a one time mental acknowledgement but a life long commitment and process, --be thou faithful unto death, Rev 2:10.

I agree. I would add that we are saved insofar as we have faith.

I don't think immortal or incorruptible would describe the universe. They may describe continuous existence, but they do not describe infinite space or quantity.

I agree. I'm not sure that Aionios is ever used in the Bible of infinite time. What do you think?

I checked, and I do not believe that aphthaptos or athanasia is ever translated as 'eternal'.

You are correct. My point was simply that these words imply the concept of eternality. For isntance, descring a person as immortal is a way of predicating eternality to them.

jmacvols · Aug 26, 2005

apocatastasis said:
Well, Jesus spoke of people not be pardoned in the age to come of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. What age do you think he had in mind. Although I tend to think that he had in mind the age of the Messianic Reign, I remain open on this.

I understand now. I do not believe there will be a 1,000 year Messianic reign, that's why I asked if you thought salvation was for an age.

apocatastasis said:
Yes, that is what I'm saying.

I have never heard of this 'unbelieving nature'. Is this similar to the belief that infants are concieved in sin, born with a sinful nature?

apocatastasis said:
It does presently continue. But this does not entail that it will continue forever. But granted that it does continue forever, could this not simply mean that the effects of God's wrath are irreversible?

If you mean by irreversable continuous and unending, then yes. Those that end up in hell will forever abide in God's wrath.

apocatastasis said:
I agree. I'm not sure that Aionios is ever used in the Bible of infinite time. What do you think?

What about the places it speaks of aionios life, aionios Spirit, aionios inheritance? things that are timeless.

apocatastasis · Aug 26, 2005

jmac

I understand now. I do not believe there will be a 1,000 year Messianic reign, that's why I asked if you thought salvation was for an age.

I don't believe that the 1000 years are literal, but don't you agree that there will be a Messianic age when Christ reigns?

I have never heard of this 'unbelieving nature'. Is this similar to the belief that infants are concieved in sin, born with a sinful nature?

Yes, perhaps. It is, I believe, what Paul calls the carnal mind. It is that part of us which is at enmity with God.

If you mean by irreversable continuous and unending, then yes. Those that end up in hell will forever abide in God's wrath

No, what I meant is that the wrath my abide eternally in the sense that the object of the wrath will have be annihilated forever. Wrath could also be eternal in the sense that it is an attribute of God, who s eternal.

What about the places it speaks of aionios life, aionios Spirit, aionios inheritance? things that are timeless.

I can see that Aionios is used of timelessness, or rather, that which transcends time (2 cor 4:18). I do nto see where it must express infinite time, however.

jmacvols · Aug 26, 2005

apocatastasis said:
I don't believe that the 1000 years are literal, but don't you agree that there will be a Messianic age when Christ reigns?

I tho't by Messianic age you meant the literal 1000 years of premillennialism. I am not familiar with what you call a Messianic age. You also said "when Christ reigns". I believe that Christ is on the right hand of God in heaven reigning now over His kingdom, the church, 1 Cor 15:25,26.

apocatastasis said:
Yes, perhaps. It is, I believe, what Paul calls the carnal mind. It is that part of us which is at enmity with God.

Again, I don't believe infants are concieved in sin, inheriting Adam's sin.

apocatastasis said:
No, what I meant is that the wrath my abide eternally in the sense that the object of the wrath will have be annihilated forever. Wrath could also be eternal in the sense that it is an attribute of God, who s eternal.

I don't believe that the souls that end up in hell will be annihilated (cease to exist), they will suffer torment day and night for ever and ever and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. As long as God last, His wrath will abide upon them. If God last forever then his wrath abides forever on them, if the wrath is finite then God is finite as well.

apocatastasis said:
I can see that Aionios is used of timelessness, or rather, that which transcends time (2 cor 4:18). I do nto see where it must express infinite time, however.

Is not timelessness the same as infinite time?

holdon · Aug 26, 2005

jmacvols said:
I don't believe that the souls that end up in hell will be annihilated (cease to exist), they will suffer torment day and night for ever and ever and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. As long as God last, His wrath will abide upon them. If God last forever then his wrath abides forever on them, if the wrath is finite then God is finite as well.

Well said. But I can say: "I told you so" see post #3. It is in my experience only annihilationists and universalists that argue with aion and aionos.

apocatastasis · Aug 27, 2005

It is in my experience only annihilationists and universalists that argue with aion and aionos.

Don't forget the preterists.

I once had a debate with an annihilationist concerning aionios, and he insisted that it means eternal. I myself have no problems with it meaning "eternal".

Mr.Cheese · Aug 27, 2005

To the OP:
Where in the world did you get your information?

In addition to you being incorrect...

eis ton aiona is an idiom meaning forever
eis ton aionon is an idiom meaning forever and ever

apocatastasis · Aug 27, 2005

jmac,

I tho't by Messianic age you meant the literal 1000 years of premillennialism. I am not familiar with what you call a Messianic age.

Eschatology is a fuzzy subject to me, I must admit. What I had in mind by "messianic age" is what Jesus referred to as the age to come. What is your take on this? What age was Jesus referring to?

You also said "when Christ reigns". I believe that Christ is on the right hand of God in heaven reigning now over His kingdom, the church, 1 Cor 15:25,26.

Very interesting. These verses, as I understand them, speak of the coming time when Christ will stop reigning after defeating death. I'm interested in hearing your view on this.

Again, I don't believe infants are concieved in sin, inheriting Adam's sin.

Ok, do you agree though that you have two natures, one carnal and the other spiritual?

I don't believe that the souls that end up in hell will be annihilated (cease to exist), they will suffer torment day and night for ever and ever and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. As long as God last, His wrath will abide upon them. If God last forever then his wrath abides forever on them, if the wrath is finite then God is finite as well.

What tells you that God's wrath must exist as long as He exists? My belief is that God's wrath is an expression of His mercy, and is meant to correct the disobedient by consuming that which is sinful in them. See Romans 9-11, where Paul revelas that God's wrath is a means towards a reconciliatory end.

Is not timelessness the same as infinite time?

Infinite time consists in time, timelessness does not. I think of God's eternality in terms of that which transcends time, and not necessarily timelessness.

Thanks for this discussion, jmac!

apocatastasis · Aug 27, 2005

eis ton aiona is an idiom meaning forever
eis ton aionon is an idiom meaning forever and ever

What is the functional difference between 'forever' and 'forever and ever'?

And why insist that these phrases are idioms when the literal sense (into the ages) is perfectly intelligible?

jmacvols · Aug 27, 2005

apocatastasis said:
Eschatology is a fuzzy subject to me, I must admit. What I had in mind by "messianic age" is what Jesus referred to as the age to come. What is your take on this? What age was Jesus referring to?

I think you had made reference to Matt 12:32 where Jesus said blasphemy against the HS would not be forgiven in this world, neither in the world to come. I believe Jesus is saying no unforgiven sin in this world will be forgiven now nor in the hereafter; no forgiveness now or ever.
Mark 10:30 the world to come eternal life-- Lk 18:30 the world to come life everlasting.

apocatastasis said:
Very interesting. These verses, as I understand them, speak of the coming time when Christ will stop reigning after defeating death. I'm interested in hearing your view on this.

I believe Christ is now reigning over his kingdom and will do so until death has been destroyed which will be at the general resurrection of both the good and evil, Jn 5:28,29.

apocatastasis said:
Ok, do you agree though that you have two natures, one carnal and the other spiritual?

I believe man has the ability to both sin and work righteousness, I do not believe in the Calvinist idea of man being total depraved.

apocastastasis said:
What tells you that God's wrath must exist as long as He exists? My belief is that God's wrath is an expression of His mercy, and is meant to correct the disobedient by consuming that which is sinful in them. See Romans 9-11, where Paul revelas that God's wrath is a means towards a reconciliatory end.

I believe the wrath of Jn 3:36 is the ultimate wrath of the final judgement, the eternal wrath of God upon the disobedient who will be lost forever, and this eternal wrath will never be removed, it will abide upon them continuously. I don't know of a verse that says this eternal wrath will ever be removed.

holdon · Aug 27, 2005

apocatastasis said:
I myself have no problems with it meaning "eternal".

Of course not. As long as "eternal" doesn't mean "endless", right?

What do you think aion and aionios mean?

apocatastasis · Aug 27, 2005

Jmac, Any given issue involves countless other issues, eh? What a complicated web. I wonder how you and I would go about unveiling the more fundamental notions which are driving our different eschatological views.

holdon,

Of course not. As long as "eternal" doesn't mean "endless", right?

Endlessness is ok with me. Although I have some logical issues with it, I do not have a problem with the bible using aionios to denote endless time.

What do you think aion and aionios mean?

Do you want a research paper? I'm not sure that I can come up with a short answer to that one....let's chat about it awhile.

Van · Aug 27, 2005

In order for John 3:16 to be dealing with the age to come, one must define the age to come. Since the passage no where refers to the age to come, perhaps John 3:16 means that folks who have eternal life never perish, but live forever with God. To say shall not perish, means shall not perish with the others in the age to come is simply adding to scripture to avoid the obvious.

Now if one tries to redefine the kingdom of God as the age to come, one must sidestep the thief who on that day was in Paradise with Jesus. Sounds like folks enter the kingdom of God when they physically die in the current age. In fairness to scripture one must admit that the kingdom of God includes anyplace God exercises kingship, such as the future kingdom of God where Jesus rules from David's throne, but to exclude the kingdom of heaven where we are seated spiritually with Christ once we are "in Christ" seems silly.

At the end of the day, the only valid way to look at John 3:16 is to say those that believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. And this eternal life never ends for we do not perish, and the eternal kingdom never ends.

Aionion is not Eternal, Everlasting or Forever

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