Agnostic & Believer

[wayfaring]

Hi all,

I wanted to put this in "Unequally Yoked" but the forum engine said I was the wrong color to post there.

This is probably going to be a strange question for this forum but maybe some of you have been down this road and can offer me some objective advice.

I am an agnostic who is married to a wonderful Christian lady. I was a conservative, fundamentalist, bible-believing Christian for 32 years. So is my wife. But I've left Christianity because 1) I find too many contradictions in the bible 2) I don't find God's character to be one of love 3) I've never discovered any proof that would lend substantiation to my faith and 4) I cannot follow the teachings of Christ.

All of that to say, I don't mind my wife practising Christianity and raising our two children that way. However, she has reminded me of my marriage vows to provide a "Christian" home and to raise our children in Christianity. I cannot, in good conscience, do so. Nor do I want to be a hypocrite by attending church when my heart is no longer there.

On the other hand, I love my wife and children dearly and do not want to lose them. Have any of you who are Christians found a way to live peaceably with an unbelieving spouse? Or did you find it necessary to get a divorce because the ideologies are not the same? Can an unequally yoked marriage work or are the hurdles too many and too high to enjoy a good relationship?

Any thoughts?

wayfaring

 

[arizona_sunshine]

I do not envy your situation. I would hope that in a loving relationship, and it is clear to me that you love and respect your wife, a balance can be maintained which allows each party to their integrity.

My questions are ... what is her interpretation of this commitment (to raise your family Christian) you made at marriage? Do you agree that you made this commitment? I would assume that you have a different understanding of the terms of the commitment.

I have never been married ... but when I do, I think what I would want most would be to avoid divorce, personally. My commitment, first and foremost, I would feel, would be to preserve that relationship with my spouse.

 

[Arikay]

What if you raised them with free thought?
When they are old enough to understand maybe teach them about many different religions and allow them to decide.

 

[Gwynne]

I'm a Christian married to an agnostic, so I suppose my position would be that which your wife is in. However, I wasn't a Christian when I got married, and neither was my husband. My husband used to be a fundamentalist/charismatic Christian and was turned off because of problems with the church he attended. Anyway....

I'm going to tell you how I personally handle this type of relationship. I pray. A lot. I pray for patience in dealing with my husband who can be unusually stubborn, I pray that he will be willing to learn and study with me, I pray that he will eventually come back to Christ. But I don't push the issue. I used to, and it almost split the marriage up. I don't want to lose my husband, I love him dearly, and so I backed off. I left it in God's hands, for God is far better at dealing with such things than I. And He's surprised me at times as well!

I used to ask my husband to go to every church and small group event, and every time he said no. I used the reasoning that we should raise my son (my husband is his stepfather) in a Christian environment and that he should at least attempt to do so with me. However he didn't feel it, he didn't believe it and children know when adults are faking things, so it wouldn't have worked. Now I just let my husband be. And I pray.

 

[wayfaring]

I do not envy your situation. I would hope that in a loving relationship, and it is clear to me that you love and respect your wife, a balance can be maintained which allows each party to their integrity.

My questions are ... what is her interpretation of this commitment (to raise your family Christian) you made at marriage? Do you agree that you made this commitment? I would assume that you have a different understanding of the terms of the commitment.

I have never been married ... but when I do, I think what I would want most would be to avoid divorce, personally. My commitment, first and foremost, I would feel, would be to preserve that relationship with my spouse.

>I would hope that in a loving relationship, and it is clear to me that you love and respect your wife, a balance can be maintained which allows each party to their integrity.

Me, too. I love her and the kids with all my heart. But the brand of Christianity that we come from doesn't offer much hope for a "balance". In other words, it portrays me as a sinner bound for hell and her as a saint bound for heaven. Because the lines are drawn so sharply, she sees us as going in two opposite directions. But the fact is that I believe in honesty, integrity, goodness, kindness, love, many of the things that the bible teaches, and many of the things that our children need to know in order to enjoy life down here and to be a blessing to others.

>My questions are ... what is her interpretation of this commitment (to raise your family Christian) you made at marriage?

That I would be the spiritual leader in the home and set the "Christian" example by raising my children to be Christians.

>Do you agree that you made this commitment? I would assume that you have a different understanding of the terms of the commitment.

Yes, I agree that I made that commitment. But people grow, they change. Even Christians believing in growing in grace and in having your mind renewed. So, even if you are a believer, do you believe the same things you did when you were 6?

>I think what I would want most would be to avoid divorce, personally. My commitment, first and foremost, I would feel, would be to preserve that relationship with my spouse.

So would I. I love her. But how can I say this? I don't love her just because she is a Christian. My son is 5 years old and I love him with all my heart. But he has never made a profession of faith in Christ. It does not stop me from loving him. Jesus said this really odd thing, that Christians should love their enemies. I am not even close to considering my wife as an enemy. But I'm afraid that she now perceives me as such.

wayfaring

 

[wayfaring]

What if you raised them with free thought?
When they are old enough to understand maybe teach them about many different religions and allow them to decide.

That's not very likely, Arikay. She wants them raised as "Christians" so that they don't go to hell.

wayfaring

 

[wayfaring]

I'm a Christian married to an agnostic, so I suppose my position would be that which your wife is in. However, I wasn't a Christian when I got married, and neither was my husband. My husband used to be a fundamentalist/charismatic Christian and was turned off because of problems with the church he attended. Anyway....

I'm going to tell you how I personally handle this type of relationship. I pray. A lot. I pray for patience in dealing with my husband who can be unusually stubborn, I pray that he will be willing to learn and study with me, I pray that he will eventually come back to Christ. But I don't push the issue. I used to, and it almost split the marriage up. I don't want to lose my husband, I love him dearly, and so I backed off. I left it in God's hands, for God is far better at dealing with such things than I. And He's surprised me at times as well!

I used to ask my husband to go to every church and small group event, and every time he said no. I used the reasoning that we should raise my son (my husband is his stepfather) in a Christian environment and that he should at least attempt to do so with me. However he didn't feel it, he didn't believe it and children know when adults are faking things, so it wouldn't have worked. Now I just let my husband be. And I pray.

Thanks for sharing. I, too, don't want to be a hypocrite. So I don't "go to church" (I never liked that term as a Christian -- church was supposed to be who we are, not where we go). But I wouldn't mind going there for social occasions for the kids. As long as my wife understands that I'd go as a family function, not in order to "hear a word from the Lord" by the pastor, it would be okay with me. She has, graciously, given me permission to stay home. But I hate that she is alone there with the kids and I know that others will look down on her because her husband is now "backslidden" or "apostate." I truly don't want her to go through that pain. But how can I be honest with my beliefs while be accommodating to keeping the family together? I can't lie about what I believe (or what I don't). But I hate the pressure that is there in the conservative, fundamentalist, bible-believing setting.

Have any of you tried moving to a more liberal church in order to compromise?

wayfaring

 

[Gwynne]

I am what would be considered a liberal Christian, although not as liberal as some. I attend a United Methodist church, and am in fact becoming a member of that church. My husband still doesn't attend church with me, although that is now more because of his work schedule than a refusal on his part. The UMC is very open in their beliefs, and much prefer to win converts by example than be preaching them into submission. That's one of the things that drew me to the church.

 

[wayfaring]

Thanks, Gwynne. I think I'll try approaching that subject with her. I find many good teachings in Christianity -- the "golden rule", loving your neighbor, loving your enemies, etc. Maybe if we found a church that stressed the more positive messages in Christianity and left the so-called "bad news" for folks to explore on their own, I would feel comfortable enough to go without feeling like a hypocrite. I'll think about this some more and I'm open to anyone else's suggestions too.

My wife definately doesn't believe this way, but our denomination often makes subtle remarks that THEY are the only ones going to heaven because only THEY have the truth. They are a loving people as long as you are just like them. But, as I stated before, Jesus doesn't call us to love those "just like us." That is easy. What is hard is building respectful relationships with others who are not just like us. That takes work. Especially if that condition is in the marriage.

I am up to the challenge of the work. I just need some type of, not "battle plan", but "bridge plan" that will allow us to continue our journeys together even if we are not taking the same exact steps.

wayfaring

 

[Gwynne]

Taking the same exact steps leads to stepping on toes

 

[Rev. Smith]

My wife is an agnostic Jew, and that was fine while I was an agnostic Catholic. As my spiritual journey became more developed, we have grown apart in matters of faith. Since you describe yourself as an agnostic, I suggest you consider something that may not sit well, go along with her when it comes to raising the children. The caveat you should insist on is that this is done in a church with enough respect for reason and diverstiy that they will not be filled with disrespect for others. Ask your wife is she would be willing to do a little chucrch shopping with you, and find a community that is soiritual enough to satisfy her, while not teaching doctrines that trouble you - even if you no longer can follow His way, a way of love, respect and virture isn't a bad way to live, is it?

 

[wayfaring]

My wife is an agnostic Jew, and that was fine while I was an agnostic Catholic. As my spiritual journey became more developed, we have grown apart in matters of faith. Since you describe yourself as an agnostic, I suggest you consider something that may not sit well, go along with her when it comes to raising the children. The caveat you should insist on is that this is done in a church with enough respect for reason and diverstiy that they will not be filled with disrespect for others. Ask your wife is she would be willing to do a little chucrch shopping with you, and find a community that is soiritual enough to satisfy her, while not teaching doctrines that trouble you - even if you no longer can follow His way, a way of love, respect and virture isn't a bad way to live, is it?

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your input. A way of love, respect, and virtue is, to me, a great way to live. And I especially appreciate what you said about finding a church that has respect for reason and diversity. Unfortunately, most of our background comes from religious training where reason is sacrificed in the name of "faith" and diversity is acceptable as long as you are just like everyone else.

I wish it were not so that couples can grow apart in matters of faith. But the reality is that it can, and does, happen. It is all the more painful when a church seems to support the division (usually using eternal destiny as a motivating factor), rather than helping these couples understand and work through their differences. In the end, as you have said, if we can understand our individual reasons and diversities, and maybe learn to appreciate them, we might be stronger for them.

When I first began to talk to my pastor about some of my doubts and questions, reason and diversity never came up. Neither did respect. He essentially said the same thing that I heard from my dear wife, "You know, when you joined this church, you signed a doctrinal statement of faith. If you are not commited to that statement of faith, then you should seriously reconsider your place here." In other words, sit down and shut up or leave. He was all for me checking what he preached against the bible until I actually did it.

I admit that I may be wrong about the doctrines that trouble me. I also may be right. I am looking for neither a nodding approval nor a condemning judgement, simply for the freedom to explore what God means to me, if He means anything.

Interestingly, my religious background ellevates others' experiences in seeking God (in the bible) to the status of "inerrant and infallible" while assuring me that my own seeking of Him is not to be trusted. No two people in the bible had the same exact experience with God. And yet they seemed to find Him to be real. I hope that my wife and I can do the same.

wayfaring

 

[ForeRunner]

I am in a similar, if much differnet situation than you are.

I am an Atheist, my girlfriend, whom I one day plan to marry, is a Christian. More than that, she is the daughter of two minister's (niece to another) and VERY active in her Church. The big exception though, is that they are liberal Christians and accept me for who I am, rather than what I believe.

We have talked about children, and how we would raise them. She wants to have them be a part of the church, and I for one would not dispute that. She once told me that even if she became and Atheist she would STILL go to church and church functions, for the sense of community and for the chance to help people. I respect that, and even join in on her Church's cahrity drives and what-not.

She also understands, however, that if the children ask me questions that I would answer them honestly and openly. She also operates under the principle that if the kids do not want to go to church they don't have to. They would have to study philosophy and theology with me until mommy gets back though, so it won't be an excuse to sleep late.

It seems to me that the only way it can work is if both parties can understand one another and comprimise. Otherwise it simply cannot work without one or the other being dishonest, and that would hurt the children far worse I think.

 

[Gwynne]

If you're wife will go for it, try the United Methodist church or any of the other Wesleyan denominations. I'm the most familiar with the UMC. Independent thought and exploration of the Bible is encouraged. Most denominations agree on the salvational issues, however they widely vary on everything else. The UMC has wide variation within the denomination specifically because they encourage independent study of the Bible. They don't tell you how to interpret it, only that it is there for you. They will answer questions if you ask them, however they won't kick you out for disagreeing with them.

 

[wayfaring]

Hi all,

Just a quick update.

My wife and I had a very good-natured talk when I got home. She has agreed that a more liberal church might be just the thing we need for now to help us find some common ground.

So we'll see what happens.

If any of you know what denominations are considered more liberal (besides the ones folks have already listed in this thread), I'd appreciate it. I am going to spend a few Sunday church-shopping (I hate doing it but it is easier and better than divorce).

Thanks all.

wayfaring

 

[Gwynne]

Episcopalian churches can be more liberal, although they are very liturgical and if you're coming from a fundamentalist or charismatic background that can be a bit of a system shock. I'd suggest any of the Wesleyan denominations, such as UMC, Nazarene, Wesleyan, Free Methodist, etc.

 

[ForeRunner]

United Church of Christ is good as well. Although I don't know how prevelant they are outside of the Northeast.

I am glad to hear that you guys reached an agreement. It is most definately a step in the right direction.

 

[wayfaring]

Episcopalian churches can be more liberal, although they are very liturgical and if you're coming from a fundamentalist or charismatic background that can be a bit of a system shock. I'd suggest any of the Wesleyan denominations, such as UMC, Nazarene, Wesleyan, Free Methodist, etc.

Hi Gwynne,

Thanks for the recommendations. I guess we are going to try the UMC. BTW, what is the difference between Free Methodists and United Methodists?

I would probably be the most comfortable in a UU church but I hope that a mainline, moderate church will work for now in our compromise.

Can you recommend any websites or books for someone leaving fundamentalism for a more liberal viewpoint?

Thanks.

wayfaring

 

[wayfaring]

United Church of Christ is good as well. Although I don't know how prevelant they are outside of the Northeast.

I am glad to hear that you guys reached an agreement. It is most definately a step in the right direction.

Forerunner, can you tell me any more about the UCC? We have Church of Christ in my area but I've heard that they are very legalistic (confessing sins to one another, strict church attendance, no musical instruments, etc.). Is this the same UCC?

Thanks.

wayfaring

 

[larryicr]

she has reminded me of my marriage vows to provide a "Christian" home and to raise our children in Christianity.

The only way that you can provide a Christian home is to allow your wife to have the spiritual authority in the home. As a christian, she should still be submisive to you, but not in spiritual matters - in those matters you must become submisive to her in order to fulfill your vows.

On the other hand, i am supposing that your vows were made to God. Since you no longer believe in God, why would you be concerned about keeping them?
If you really love your family, how will you be able to sit by and let them believe what you consider a lie? Doesn't the truth proceed out of love?