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Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

Born Again2004

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No OSAS for Christians who are slaves of sin (who habitually practice sin)
This is a common lie for those against OSAS. No one I have ever met that believes in OSAS nor I "habitually practices sin"!! We are "Born Again" and have a repentant heart towards sin. Those who practice sin are NO Christian and the opposite of OSAS Christian!
This is the difference between and believer and a non-believer and has NOTHING to do with OSAS!
AGAIN!...this is the difference a believer and a nonbeliever and nothing to do with OSAS!
All of you supporting scripture has nothing to do with OSAS, except in your heart!
 
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EmSw

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Are you saying a person who says they believe but still lives in sin is not a believer? Where is faith alone? I see you believe it is a person who believes and does not continue in sin who is saved.
 
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Geralt

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this is at best a warning. but it is not against osas. people must understand that the churches that time & its gospel where being attacked from both within and without. and so the dire warnings to separate the wheat from the tares, the pretenders from the genuine, truth from error.

however osas stand or falls NOT in these warnings, but on a persons view of who God is, this is the bottomline. either he is a puny god who stands in the corner and watches his children prevail or fall by their own effort, OR a God who engages directly, forms and molds his children. (Ephesian 2:10). man may be weak, but God is never weak nor passive nor indifferent.

as I have written before, IF GOD SAVES PEOPLE HE ALSO CHANGES THEM.

and that new change is the new desire to love God, with God upholding his children until they all come home.


friend, if you think you have not been born anew (John 3:3), then you need to be. it is not just a testament of a new you, it is God working in you. and God working in you is NOT a small thing, it is everything!

salvation has always been God's work from eternity to eternity,


(AMP) And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

and He ensures this by His own involvement in what He himself has willed even before creation.

 
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BobRyan

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Those are some good points - no question.

But to narrow it down a bit.

Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked
 
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FreeGrace2

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Those are some good points - no question.
None of his points can be supported from Scripture.

But to narrow it down a bit.

Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
The question is: "spare you....from what?" The text does NOT say "from what", so it's just an opinion as to one will be spared from.

And Rom 11:29 SAYS that the gifts of God are irrevocable. And previously in that same epistle, in 6:23 Paul wrote that eternal life is a gift of God.

Therefore, the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

This is not debatable. Therefore, to be "spared from whatever" cannot refer to loss of salvation.

If salvation can be lost, then Jesus lied blatantly.
John 18:9 - to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”

Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Sorry, but this cannot refer to loss of salvation. The opinion is refuted by the fact that God's gifts are irrevocable, and eternal life is one of God's gifts.

If salvation can be lost, Paul lied in either Rom 6:23 or Rom 11:29.

Which verse do you think was the lie?

But to address Matt 18, the one who had been forgiven did NOT forgive, therefore, he was again guilty of sin.
 
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BobRyan

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Those are some good points - no question.

But to narrow it down a bit.

Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked


Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

===================================

The question is: "spare you....from what?"

The text tells us it is the fate of the unbelieving Christ-rejecting Jew
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"The question is: "spare you....from what?"

in reference to Rom 11:21
No, the "you" refers to those he was addressing: believers in Rome.

So the question remains: what will believers not be spared of?
 
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VanillaSunflowers

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I pray to Abba Father that those who are indwelt by God's sacred and holy spirit do indeed take warning of the content and intention of this thread. Because it is utter truth. Those who believe they can lose their salvation were never saved in the first place.


1st John 2 speaks of this.
And John 10 speaks even more.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” "
 
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EmSw

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None of his points can be supported from Scripture.


The question is: "spare you....from what?" The text does NOT say "from what", so it's just an opinion as to one will be spared from.

And Rom 11:29 SAYS that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Why is it so hard for you to answer whether sight is a gift from God?

Anyone with discernment knows why - it knocks the foundation from your beliefs.
 
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BobRyan

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Those are some good points - no question.

But to narrow it down a bit.

Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked


Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

===================================

The question is: "spare you....from what?"

The text tells us it is the fate of the unbelieving Christ-rejecting Jew

I said this:
"The question is: "spare you....from what?"

in reference to Rom 11:21

No, the "you" refers to those he was addressing: believers in Rome.

I don't think you followed the point or the question.

"spare you from what" was your first question .. not 'who is the you'.

My answer was that it was to spare them the same fate as the failing example given in Rom 11 which is the failure of the non-Christian Jews.

Now you are asking another question -- "who is the you" and to that I would answer it is the believing gentiles as Paul states in the chapter. (Hint there is both believing Jew and gentile in Rome according to Romans 1 and 2).

So the question remains: what will believers not be spared of?

And the answer remains - they are being spared the same fate as that of unbelieving non-Christian Jews.

Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

-- details matter.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Why is it so hard for you to answer whether sight is a gift from God?
Rather, why is it so hard to understand my answer?

And, again, where does the Bible SAY that my poor eyesight was a gift from God?

Anyone with discernment knows why - it knocks the foundation from your beliefs.
lol

Your assumptions have yet to be supported from Scripture.
 
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EmSw

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Rather, why is it so hard to understand my answer?

You have yet to give all of us an answer.

Look, I'll make it easy for you FG2, IS EYESIGHT A GIFT FROM GOD? A yes or no will suffice.

And, again, where does the Bible SAY that my poor eyesight was a gift from God?

Your eyesight is either earned, paid for, evolved over time, or a gift of God. Which is it?

Did God 'give' you eyesight? If so, then it is a gift from Him.

Did God 'give' you life at birth? If so, then it is a gift from Him.

Your assumptions have yet to be supported from Scripture.

Let's see what others think, shall we?

Anyone reading this thread may answer.

Is eyesight a gift from God?
 
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FreeGrace2

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The Bible does NOT say so.

Or you'd have already quoted a Scripture.

But regardless, even if it is, so what? Paul didn't provide any exclusions in Rom 11:29 when he wrote that "the gifts of God are irrevocable".

Now, if he'd just said "some of the gifts", or "most of the gifts", or "many of the gifts", or something like that, you might have a point.

But, you don't.
 
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Born Again2004

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I hear all this talk of no OSAS and it is really upsetting. As well as anyone, I too can quote scripture after scripture to support eternal assurance but it makes no difference to those , in which, OSAS threatens their need to live in constant fear of failure.
I am not perfect and need God's help in so many ways to keep on the narrow and straight path but, I know this to be true for myself: Scripture helps, it gives me wisdom but, it is him in me alone that assures me!
 
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EmSw

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If it is, then gifts of God are revocable.
 
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BobRyan

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Those are some good points - no question.

But to narrow it down a bit.

Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked


Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

===================================

The question is: "spare you....from what?"

The text tells us it is the fate of the unbelieving Christ-rejecting Jew

I said this:
"The question is: "spare you....from what?"

in reference to Rom 11:21

No, the "you" refers to those he was addressing: believers in Rome.

I don't think you followed the point or the question.

"spare you from what" was your first question .. not 'who is the you'.

My answer was that it was to spare them the same fate as the failing example given in Rom 11 which is the failure of the non-Christian Jews.

Now you are asking another question -- "who is the you" and to that I would answer it is the believing gentiles as Paul states in the chapter. (Hint there is both believing Jew and gentile in Rome according to Romans 1 and 2).

So the question remains: what will believers not be spared of?

And the answer remains - they are being spared the same fate as that of unbelieving non-Christian Jews.

Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

-- details matter.

I hear all this talk of no OSAS and it is really upsetting.

Why do you say that?


As well as anyone, I too can quote scripture after scripture to support eternal assurance but it makes no difference

Consider the Protestant Reformation if all else fails. "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition.

Try it... you will like it.


in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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So then -- "Sola scriptura" -- it is.


Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again


Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified


Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
 
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Born Again2004

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Consider the Protestant Reformation if all else fails. "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition.

Try it... you will like it.


in Christ,

Bob[/QUOTE]
My dear brother, I love the word of God and nothing is truer than "Sola Scriptura" but without "Sola Christ" in you, there is no discernment and may lead one to boasting in themselves!
 
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EmSw

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I am really sorry you do not think your sight, hearing, speaking, and every other bodily features are gifts from God. Even your physical life is a gift from God. No FG2, you do not have to give God credit for these gifts; you can take these wonders from God and credit someone or something else.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I too can quote scripture after scripture to support eternal assurance but it makes no difference to those , in which, OSAS threatens their need to live in constant fear of failure.
I think another motivation for such views is simply revenge. It seems to me they just can't stand the thought of anyone "getting away" with anything. Even though it's been shown many times that Scripture teaches about God's severe hand of discipline for His rebellious children. Including examples.

But for them, anything less than loss of salvation and spending an eternity in the lake of fire is just not enough.

How sad.
 
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