Against Dispensationalism

[child of Jesus]

is it okay to discuss Dispensationalism as false doctrine or is this forum only PRO Dispensationalism?

is debate ok?

~

child

 

[child of Jesus]

ok.
i'm against dispensationalism and can prove its false doctrine.
sound like fun?

 

[josephearl]

well say something...

 

[child of Jesus]

Dispensationalism denies that believing israel (the Apostles/Israel/Judah/believing jews) mentioned in the Gospels and Acts became the Church (ekklesia) and the gentiles were grafted in, making one new man - all equal. and that the church has been filled with both jew and gentiles ever since.

Dispensationalism says the church is God's Plan B - devised when "Israel" rejected Jesus and that the two groups are separate.

It says God has two plans of salvation underway - Dual Covenant theology.

it promises Israel its rightful place after rejecting Christ, during a future 1,000 years on a cursed earth from Old Jerusalem...back to Plan A after all.

it requires 3 resurrections.
is that about right?

 

[dan p]

Hi , and where does it say the God has a Covenant with the Body of Christ ?? dan p

 

[child of Jesus]

Hi , and where does it say the God has a Covenant with the Body of Christ ?? dan p

huh?
we are under the New Covenant - forgiveness of sins.
hello?

 

[dan p]

huh?
we are under the New Covenant - forgiveness of sins.
hello?

Hi , and where does it say that believers under Grace , the Body of Christ was given a Covenant ??

Try Eph 2:12 !!

dan p

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that there were seven churches within the church of Jesus Christ.

1. Ephesus - Apostolic
2. Smyrna - Martyr
3. Pergomos - Orthodox
4. Thyatira - Catholic
5. Sardis - Protestant
6. Philadelphia - Methodism / Pentecostalism / Revival
7. Laodicea - Charismatic / Word of Faith

In which... In studying the churches... These churches were very much different in the way they do things. Hymns tend to be present in Philadelphia, while the charismatic type worship in Laodicea. And furthermore these churches tend to look narrowly at each other...

The Catholics look narrowly at the Protestants
The Protestants look narrowly at the Catholics
The Philadelphians hate the 'rock and roll beat' of Laodicea
The Laodiceans are not much for hymns.

There were actual wars fought in Europe over the rule of the churches.

All of these were products of dispensationalism.

12.25 2060, Isaac Newton, and the Seven Churches - YouTube

 

[child of Jesus]

Hi , and where does it say that believers under Grace , the Body of Christ was given a Covenant ??

Try Eph 2:12 !!

dan p

Ephesians
One in Christ
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

exactly.

the church is israel.
and vice versa.
jew/gentile no diff.

both one in Christ New Covenant.

this distinction between jew and gentile and covenants is heresy.

 

[PeterAV]

Hi , and where does it say the God has a Covenant with the Body of Christ ?? dan p

That is easy if you know your Bible.
Just look at Hebrews 8:7

 

[ptomwebster]

Dispensationalism denies that believing israel (the Apostles/Israel/Judah/believing jews) mentioned in the Gospels and Acts became the Church (ekklesia) and the gentiles were grafted in, making one new man - all equal. and that the church has been filled with both jew and gentiles ever since.

Dispensationalism says the church is God's Plan B - devised when "Israel" rejected Jesus and that the two groups are separate.

It says God has two plans of salvation underway - Dual Covenant theology.

it promises Israel its rightful place after rejecting Christ, during a future 1,000 years on a cursed earth from Old Jerusalem...back to Plan A after all.

it requires 3 resurrections.
is that about right?

This is totally different than the Dispensationalism I know and adhere to, where did you get your information?

 

[rockytopva]

When dealing with dispensationalism it is important to note that every Christian heavily into history and the Bible sees things from different perspectives. No two of us see things the same way.

 

[child of Jesus]

This is totally different than the Dispensationalism I know and adhere to, where did you get your information?

example:

2.2 A Distinction Between Israel and the Church
Dispensationalists believe that God has two separate but parallel means of working - one through the Church, the other through Israel (the former being a parenthesis to the latter).[[6]] Thus there is, and always will remain, a distinction, 'between Israel, the Gentiles and the Church.'[[7]] Darby was not the first to insist on a radical distinction between Israel and the Church.

Marcion stressed the radical nature of Christianity vis-a-vis Judaism. In his theology there existed a total discontinuity between the OT and the NT, between Israel and the church, and even between the god of the OT and the Father of Jesus.[[8]]


It was, however, Darby who first insisted that: ‘The Jewish nation is never to enter the Church.’[[9]] Scofield developed this idea further:


Comparing then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny, all is contrast.[[10]]

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary and a student of Scofield's, elaborated on this dichotomy between Israel and the church:


The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.[[11]]

For Chafer, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’[[12]] that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.

from:

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology
A History of Dispensational Approaches
By Rev. Steven Sizer​

 

[child of Jesus]

delete: duplicate

 

[Danoh]

example:

2.2 A Distinction Between Israel and the Church
Dispensationalists believe that God has two separate but parallel means of working - one through the Church, the other through Israel (the former being a parenthesis to the latter).[[6]] Thus there is, and always will remain, a distinction, 'between Israel, the Gentiles and the Church.'[[7]] Darby was not the first to insist on a radical distinction between Israel and the Church.

Marcion stressed the radical nature of Christianity vis-a-vis Judaism. In his theology there existed a total discontinuity between the OT and the NT, between Israel and the church, and even between the god of the OT and the Father of Jesus.[[8]]


It was, however, Darby who first insisted that: ‘The Jewish nation is never to enter the Church.’[[9]] Scofield developed this idea further:


Comparing then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny, all is contrast.[[10]]

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary and a student of Scofield's, elaborated on this dichotomy between Israel and the church:


The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.[[11]]

For Chafer, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’[[12]] that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.

from:

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology
A History of Dispensational Approaches

By Rev. Steven Sizer​

Give it up while you're behind - only fools argue against Dispensationalism by quoting the writings of men over presenting their case on Scripture alone.

So much for Romans 11:25 -27's warning warning against what arose to become Covenant Theology as well as Romans 11:25-27's prediction of Israel's future glory.

Bad enough you quoted a Denominational Bible. Must've been "cause its easy to read."

Fool. Go back to "readin bout the Bible."

Danoh

 

[Biblewriter]

double post deleted by Biblewriter

 

[Biblewriter]

Dispensationalism denies that believing israel (the Apostles/Israel/Judah/believing jews) mentioned in the Gospels and Acts became the Church (ekklesia) and the gentiles were grafted in, making one new man - all equal. and that the church has been filled with both jew and gentiles ever since.

Dispensationalism says the church is God's Plan B - devised when "Israel" rejected Jesus and that the two groups are separate.

It says God has two plans of salvation underway - Dual Covenant theology.

it promises Israel its rightful place after rejecting Christ, during a future 1,000 years on a cursed earth from Old Jerusalem...back to Plan A after all.

it requires 3 resurrections.
is that about right?

First, I want to apologize for the poor behavior of some dispensationalists in this thread.

But that said. My answer to the charges above is a flat and absolute Not Guilty. We do not teach even one of the doctrines listed above.

I have been hob-nobbing with Dispensationalists for almost seventy years now, and have never, even once, heard any of these ideas expressed by even one dispensationalist. Further, I have been studying dispensationalist writings for fifty years, and I have never seen these ideas in any of their writings.


But to go back and examine them in detail: you first said that "Dispensationalism denies that believing israel (the Apostles/Israel/Judah/believing jews) mentioned in the Gospels and Acts became the Church (ekklesia) and the gentiles were grafted in, making one new man - all equal. and that the church has been filled with both jew and gentiles ever since."

This is simply incorrect. Dispensationalists most absolutely believe that any and all members of the nation of Israel that trust Jesus as their Messiah and the sacrifice for their sins immediately become part of the body of Christ, the church, which unites Jew and gentile into one body. There is a very simple reason we believe this. The scriptures clearly teach it, and we believe everything the Bible says.

Second, you say, "Dispensationalism says the church is God's Plan B - devised when "Israel" rejected Jesus and that the two groups are separate." This is completely false. We believe that God's plan from the very beginning was to save all mankind through the blood of Christ. We most certainly do not believe that the church was God's plan B. It was the center of his design for mankind from the very beginning. There is a very simple reason we believe this. The scriptures clearly teach it, and we believe everything the Bible says.

Next, you say, "It says God has two plans of salvation underway - Dual Covenant theology." I have been told that John Hagee teaches such heresy, but I have never heard him say such a thing, nor have I ever seen it in his writings. But that does not mean much, for I have only listened to him a few times and have read very few of his writings. But even even if he dose teach such evil doctrine, he stands alone in the Dispensational camp in saying such nonsense.

Dispensationalists believe, and absolutely believe, that no man ever has or ever will be saved except by grace through faith. And we believe, and absolutely believe, that now that Jesus has come, this faith must be placed in Jesus, and not just in God. There is a very simple reason we believe this. The scriptures clearly teach it, and we believe everything the Bible says.

Finally, you say "it promises Israel its rightful place after rejecting Christ, during a future 1,000 years on a cursed earth from Old Jerusalem...back to Plan A after all." Again we teach no such thing.

We believe that Israel will still receive all the promises it was given in the Old Testament. There is a very simple reason we believe this. The scriptures clearly teach it, and we believe everything the Bible says.

But we most absolutely do not believe that this will come to pass until after all Israel has finally repented of their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah. But in a future day, this will most absolutely happen. There is a very simple reason we believe this. The scriptures clearly teach it, and we believe everything the Bible says.

We most absolutely do not believe that this will take place in a cursed earth, but that at that time the curse will be removed. There is a very simple reason we believe this. The scriptures clearly teach it, and we believe everything the Bible says.

We believe that this blessed period in the earth will last a thousand years. There is a very simple reason we believe this. The scriptures clearly teach it, and we believe everything the Bible says.


And we do not believe that this is a return to "plan A," but simply the fulfillment of the promises made to that nation long ago.There is a very simple reason we believe this. The scriptures clearly teach it, and we believe everything the Bible says.

You reason that dispensationalism requires three resurrections, but I don't even know where you got this idea. I have never heard even one dispensationalist anywhere teach that there will be three resurrections. We believe there will be two resurrections, the resurrection of the just before the millennium and the resurrection of the damned after the millennium.There is a very simple reason we believe this. The scriptures clearly teach it, and we believe everything the Bible says.

Our argument with you is that you do not believe the scriptures that very explicitly make these promises to Israel. You use your interpretation of the meanings of a few New Testament passages as an excuse to ignore the literally hundreds of places where God very explicitly said Israel will receive all these blessings. These scriptures even go so far as to define the borders of the land in that day, and specify which of the twelve tribes will receive each part of that land. This description is so precise that it is possible to draw a map of that future land.

But the scriptures just as explicitly describe, in great detail, the process that God will use to bring this rebellious nation to repentance. This process will kill two-thirds of all the inhabitants of the land, and even after that, God will purge out all the rebels from among them. It is only after this sifting process that all Israel will finally repent. And it is only after this repentance takes place that they will finally receive the blessing they have been promised.

 

[ptomwebster]

example:

2.2 A Distinction Between Israel and the Church
Dispensationalists believe that God has two separate but parallel means of working - one through the Church, the other through Israel (the former being a parenthesis to the latter).[[6]] Thus there is, and always will remain, a distinction, 'between Israel, the Gentiles and the Church.'[[7]] Darby was not the first to insist on a radical distinction between Israel and the Church.

...

A History of Dispensational Approaches​

By Rev. Steven Sizer​

That certainly has nothing to do with the dispensationalism I know about, it's contrary to Scripture:

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[rockytopva]

Can any two dispensationalist agree on any two points on the doctrines of dispensationalism? History bares out the dispensations!

1. Ephesus - Apostolics
2. Smyrna - The Foxes book of martyrs testifies of 10 persecutions (Note: You shall have persecution 10 days)!
3. Pergamos - Orthodoxy was a strong force at Constantinople and remains a strong force in many parts of the world to this day.
4. Thyatira - Catholic - The Spirit of Jezebel is to dominate and control. You would not have wanted to speak out against the pope during the glory of the Thyatirean church age!
5. Sardis - Protestants - There was a protestant reformation
6. Philadelphia - Revivals - There were revivals, unique to its time, at the location of the Philadelphia church (In which the Lord Jesus only knows the true geography and time periods).
7. Laodicea - There is the reality of the charismatic / word of faith church.

History bares out the dispensations! In which, these churches are all unique!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO8Y0vvWT0

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Give it up while you're behind - only fools argue against Dispensationalism by quoting the writings of men over presenting their case on Scripture alone.

So much for Romans 11:25 -27's warning warning against what arose to become Covenant Theology as well as Romans 11:25-27's prediction of Israel's future glory.

Bad enough you quoted a Denominational Bible. Must've been "cause its easy to read."

Fool. Go back to "readin bout the Bible."

Danoh

What she said was absolutely true.
Dispensationalists have had to give up all those things and are now down to thier last gasp.
I'll let Christ snatch that from em.
When all else fails, look to Jesus.

Foolish christians at Christ's return
And cast ye the unprofitable servant(dispensationalist) into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Flesh Israel at Christ's return
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
All who hear this heresy should check this out.
http://www.frame-poythress.org/Poyth...disp/bd12.html
Chapter 12

Some dispensationalists are now admitting that the idea of strict compartmentalization of heaven and earth is a mistake.
A quote from one of thier own.
Kenneth Barker says (1982, 12) says:

Strictly speaking it is also incorrect to call Israel God's earthly people and the Church God's heavenly people, since in the eternal state we will all live together sharing in the blessings of the New Jerusalem and the new earth ....
So, then, there is a greater unity or integration in God's grand design and in his overall purpose and comprehensive program for this earth and its people than many dispensationalists have been willing to acknowledge. In the past some of us have not been able to see the forest for the trees. We have compartmentalized too much.

​