Affirmative Action

[Marek]

I'm curious as to what your views on affirmative action are. Please discuss.

 

[JustOneWay]

People need a break from time to time, but passing up a more qualified candidate (student, etc) doesn't make much sense.
On the other hand, employers hire sub-par individuals because they know the person. That practice doesn't make much sense either.

 

[Jetgirl]

I'm curious as to what your views on affirmative action are. Please discuss.

Affirmative action has done it's duty.

We should be basing employment and school admissions on blind (as to race and sex) examination of qualifications.

 

[Marek]

Affirmative action has done it's duty.

A quick look at the number of minorities in high-ranking job positions would seem to show that affimative action has not yet done its duty.

 

[nvxplorer]

We should be basing employment and school admissions on blind (as to race and sex) examination of qualifications.

One of the goals for public universities is diversity. Sex and ethnicity are weighted factors, and as such, are not the sole determinants in admissions. It’s unlikely (if not impossible) for a severly unqualified applicant to be accepted based only on sex or race.

 

[Marek]

One of the goals for public universities is diversity. Sex and ethnicity are weighted factors, and as such, are not the sole determinants in admissions. It’s unlikely (if not impossible) for a severly unqualified applicant to be accepted based only on sex or race.

But should diversity be judged on the number of people with different skin colors or different sex organs? I know it is a significant factor, but as a policy that is meant to curb discrimination, it seems that it is discriminating in its own right.

 

[nvxplorer]

But should diversity be judged on the number of people with different skin colors or different sex organs?

Ideally, no. This is how society has historically discriminated, however.

I know it is a significant factor, but as a policy that is meant to curb discrimination, it seems that it is discriminating in its own right.

Perhaps, but striving toward an educational system that reflects the diversity in society is an honorable and pragmatic goal, IMO.

 

[MachZer0]

Affirmative Action is a way of telling minorities that they do not have sufficient mental or physical skills to compete for jobs and education. Therefore, they need help. Just like allowing kids to speak ebonics is telling them that they aren't smart enough to learn proper English

 

[PACKY]

Best person for the Job.
if people wanted to be treated as Equals then they need to stop using their race/sex/sexual orientation as a crutch.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

The government, colleges etc can't on the one hand claim that racism in bad while on the other hand allowing race to be factored into any type of admission or employment criteria.

Racism is either acceptable, or it's not. People can't have it both ways.

 

[neverforsaken]

basing employment or admission based on race in either form is wrong. I will be proud to know that i am getting a job because i am qualified and not because im hispanic. Its such a sickening feeling to know that the job you have may not have been gained by my skills. But because of affirmative action, i never know if i got the job or into school based on my skills and that always has me wondering.

 

[nvxplorer]

basing employment or admission based on race in either form is wrong. I will be proud to know that i am getting a job because i am qualified and not because im hispanic. Its such a sickening feeling to know that the job you have may not have been gained by my skills. But because of affirmative action, i never know if i got the job or into school based on my skills and that always has me wondering.

In principle, I agree with you. In practice, things are different. As someone who did the hiring for a small, family owned business, I can attest that some business owners will not hire minorities (blacks, in this case), regardless of qualifications.

 

[Marek]

In principle, I agree with you. In practice, things are different. As someone who did the hiring for a small, family owned business, I can attest that some business owners will not hire minorities (blacks, in this case), regardless of qualifications.

In that case, that person was breaking the law. Affirmative action should not be necessary to inforce that law.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

In principle, I agree with you. In practice, things are different. As someone who did the hiring for a small, family owned business, I can attest that some business owners will not hire minorities (blacks, in this case), regardless of qualifications.

And by introducing Affirmative Action, we simply bring ourselves down to their level.

If it's about "evening up the playing field", then people who support AA can't complain when others try to tilt the field back in their favour by not hiring minorities ( or whoever ).

What the business owners did was wrong, and would be covered by existing anti-discrimination laws.

 

[nvxplorer]

In that case, that person was breaking the law. Affirmative action should not be necessary to inforce that law.

Again, in principle, I agree. Reality rarely conforms to the ideal. There wasn’t a whole lot I could do. I could complain to the owner. That would solve nothing. Even if I were protected by whistleblower law (which I wasn’t), it would have been my word against his. The reality is that racism is alive and well in this country. I’m torn on the issue of AA, myself, but it’s fallacious to assume that without it, everyone would be assessed on qualifications alone.

 

[nvxplorer]

And by introducing Affirmative Action, we simply bring ourselves down to their level.

If it's about "evening up the playing field", then people who support AA can't complain when others try to tilt the field back in their favour by not hiring minorities ( or whoever ).

That’s putting the cart before the horse. AA was instituted to combat discrimination that was already present.

What the business owners did was wrong, and would be covered by existing anti-discrimination laws.

Sure it was wrong. Unfortunately, business owners break the law regularly. Proving the case would be next to impossible.

I lost three fingers in a table saw accident fifteen years ago. The owner was in violation of safety laws. He stood to be fined about $60,000, but someone at OSHA warned him the day before the inspector arrived. All the guards were quickly installed, and after he left, they were just as quickly removed.

If people were honest, we’d have no need for laws and regulations.

 

[Crusader05]

I believe that Affirmative Action is beneficial because it helps to remedy some of the lingering effect of racism.

For example; minority areas tend to be poorer than non-minority area, they have a lower tax base and therefore the schools are not as good as those in white areas. They kids who go to the school in the ghetto dont get the same benefits as the kids who went to the good school in the suburbs. The kids who didn't get the same opportunites because they were born poor and black wont (most likely) get into the best colleges or go on to be wealthy professionals because they were disadvantaged from day one. This is a generalitiy, I know there are many exceptions but as a general rule the kids who go to poor schools will not go on to a good college and wont get into a well-paying profession.

Affirmative Action is an attempt to fix this injustice buy allowing those who were disadvantaged by the effect of racism the opportunity to excel.

 

[Zoot]

Affirmative action will have done its job when ethnic minorities burdened with generational poverty from the genocide of the Native Americans and the slavery of the African Americans are proportionally represented in education, income and imprisonment.

 

[Jetgirl]

But because of affirmative action, i never know if i got the job or into school based on my skills and that always has me wondering.

I as well.

I have a suspicion that I got squeeked into college on the basis of an extra X chromosome, and I feel very badly about that possiblity.

 

[Jetgirl]

One of the problems I've found is that things that look unequal on the surface, are often things you actually don't want to change:

I was looking at some stats on lifetime earnings of men and women on the census website and saw something interesting. The earnings of men and women tracked roughly on the same scale but womens earnings were consistantly about 15% less than mens.

Bigotry! Outrage!

Actually not.

What women do, that men can't, is have babies. To have babies, I gaurentee that you're going to be taking some time off work. Between that and the women who choose to stay home for months to years to raise children. It's also hard to have a gung-ho career when taking care of a family. I see it myself, it drives me bonkers when my staff cannot get to work on time because they're taking the kids to school, take random days off for kid stuff, are always leaving early for kid stuff, and I have to pick up all the slack. These women are not going to make it to management, because they simply aren't THERE when management needs to be there. Men generally don't have this problem.

To get those numbers I saw on the census site to add up, you would need to actually pay women consitantly more than men.

What you would be doing is artificially forcing the numbers to look equal by discriminating against those that aren't doing the pregnancy/children thing.

I feel that AA does this same thing. Makes things LOOK equal, when they're really not and shouln't particuarly be.