advice needed with custody arrangements

OH yeah...I know this.

She is using your son as a pawn in keeping the fight with you ongoing so you will stay engaged in battle with her.

And she is winning in that respect.

Marriage is for a limited time only...but ex wives are forever. Sorry to tell you this but...well You are finding out the hard way eh?

Natural consequences have to be your guide. Not forced consequences.

If she doesn't give you dates far enough in advance...she can't have him due to the scheduling conflicts. It is that simple. I would give her some kind of formal notice of this and be done with it. Give her a date that she must have tickets purchased by...and follow through with it.

Otherwise she is going to be childish and test your word on this. Just like the child who is threatened with a spanking but never receives one...they behave poorly.

TheDag said:

Tropical my son is gone for 6 out of the 12 weeks yearly school holidays. since my ex is not getting back to me i can only be certain about school term. it is which 6 of those 12 weeks that is in dispute.

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Well, I've given you numerous suggestions on what to do. You insist none of them work, despite never having tried them. It seems like you're either looking for an excuse to deny your ex the ability to see your son, or you guys have such bad communication that no mater what goes on, you'll always be upset at what happens. I'm sorry, but your case isn't unique. People have this issue, and work through it, all the time. I don't know why you believe that there's nothing in the world that will help the situation, unless, as I said before, the overall goal is to just deny your ex visitation all together. You insist talking to her won't work, round trip tickets won't work, court won't work... Yet you've not really pursued it.

If you're looking for the magic key to never talk with your ex but have all your custody arraignments work out in advance, there's no helping you. Go to court, sit down and work with her, take the initiative to work it out for the benefit of your son.

Don't be patronising in telling me how to have a conversation. i have been contacting her trying to eork it out and she does not give an answer. that is the problem i have been asking about since the beginning of this thread! now you tell me to do exactly what i have been doing!

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Ok... So a page ago, you said that you didn't understand what I was getting at, then I break it down and now I'm patronizing... I don't want to make assumptions here, but I'm going to say if your dialouge with your ex transpires like it does here, no wonder there are issues. Have you guys thought about doing mediation or family counseling to work on it?

I was not aware of courts setting specific dates. hopefully that applies here in oz as well. expensive option to constantly go to mediation but it does look like my only option sadly so will have to be done.

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Well, expensive or have your rights always protected... We waste money on dumber things then ensuring structure for our kids.

TheDag said:

Child support in australis is indeed worked out on your most recent tax return. i know this because i have had a assesment done. that shows her income and my income. so i know her income reflects her job in 2003 not her new job plus extra income from writing.

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Have you gone to court, a mediator, a lawyer, or another representative of child support advocacy in your area?

Sorry but you can't convince me that she would be struggling on $90k per year. her rent is $210 per week transport is $80 per week because she chooses to live on an island. food for the three of us was $120 per week so can estimate costs her $60 per week. So less than $20k a year. utilities would cist around $2k per year. After tax is paid she still has around $47k to spend. i live on less than that and oay higher rent and higher food due to sons allergies. so she is not struggling. she pays around $13200 in child support total for both kids.

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Unless you're privy to the spending habits of your ex that far supersedes what is normal in a divorce scenario, you're merely speculating. You can't guess what her additional expenses are, or her exact income, nor should you. The fact that she makes 90k and that would mean you're comfortable doesn't mean that at 90k, if she makes that, she is financially comfortable.

For certain we have had our troubles with finances in the past, and the fact that our income would be a lifesaver to those who make less doesn't negate that our financial demands can be troublesome.

Secondly, as your ex, it's not up to you do dictate what disposable income she has and how she should be spending it. The court dictates what she has to provide and that's where your involvement her finances ends.

Trust me, as somebody who's husband pays child support that totals more then half his take-home (in our state, child support is calculated off a percentage of gross income, then compared to his ex's income, and from there they determine percent of financial responsibility, they determined he pays 88% of that percent... So say 40% of his income is eligible for child support, of that 40% that's eligible, she gets 88%, which in our situation is more then 50% of his take-home) and still hears his ex grouse about how broke she is and how, because we combined make about 4 times what she does, therefore we must have no financial issues... Not only is it irritating and breeds bad blood as it's none of her business, but it's not true. We have financial obligations and before we got our ducks in a row, regardless of the fact that she has substantially less income, by her own choosing, isn't reflective of our finances and how "well off" we are.

And in that vein, the two of us make about 4 times more then she does, but my husband works 50-60 hours a week, I work 60-80. She chooses to work 12-18 and gets social benefits. So comparing our financial situation to hers is flawed from the beginning considering we work a great deal more.

That said, she gets her child support check every Friday, so...

I'm not saying you work more or less then her, only that her income is not your business as if she has financial issues or not is not dependent on what your impression of what you think her finances should be based off of how that income would sustain you. If she's not paying her child support, take her to court. Let them sort it out and save yourself grief by assuming you know the financial habits and needs of your ex.

What makes it worse is she constantly complained about father of her other son not planning far enough in advance for his visits to her yet she doesn't want to do what she expects him to do!

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Not your business. Really isn't. And totally irrelevant to the situation.

TheDag said:

My problem with your posts tropical is clearly seen in your last post. in the first part of your response you say i have claimed the solution won't work. however in the very same post you quote me acknowledging that i didn't realise courts will set specific dates and also quoted me saying looks like that is my only option.

The other issue is that you kept telling me to do something i have been doing and is not working and despite my explaining that you kept saying it claiming i should discuss with her not dictate terms. yet when i call her and say when i need to know by (another suggestion of yours) she just says i will get back to you but doesn't. if she refuses to give an answer that does not help me. if i don't know the dates i can not book a round trip ticket unless i dictate terms.

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You can talk with people, express what works with you, without dictating terms. I gave you an example of how to do that, and you got mad because I was patronizing you. So... I'm really not sure what to tell you. You can work with your ex to figure this stuff out, despite your repeated meltdowns that it's just not possible.

You also say i should sit down and work with her. well tell me how do you think we got an agreement in the first place???? you know that agreement i mentioned she wasn't following. that i mentioned i conpromised on what i wanted to make sure we had a agreement. you seem to have ignored all this in your responses. that is why i had trouble understanding. i thought you read what i wrote hence didn't understand. if i had realised you were not addressing what i mentioned i would have understood.

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So then sit down with her like you did before, over the phone, and work it out. Say "I need to book the dates for you seeing (son), please give me the round trip dates that work for you, keeping in mind his coming back on days x, y, and z won't work for me. I can't book anything unless I have the dates he's coming and coming back, so let's work this out."

Ta da.

I

know her total income is none of my business but she is effectively stealing fron me and her other ex. yeah i've spoken to ppl about it.

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Not your business. Not something you should be discussing with others. If you're upset with how much she pays, the irregularity in which she pays, or feel she's misrepresenting what she makes... There's a place for that.

Court.

A simple web search shows that child support in Australia is calculated by looking at the paying parent's last year's income unless there's been a change in employment, then it goes off of this years estimated income based off what is reported to the court and supported by documentation. That amount is then compared to the custodial parent's income, a percentage of support is determined based off of what you make and what she makes, and then an order is made. Exactly like it is here.

i can try to convince the tax office to make her do her tax return but she will be fined. not something i really want to do because that might cause her to have financial trouble.

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Like two posts ago you said it was impossible for her to have financial problems as she has like 50k in disposable income.

the expenses i put are either 100% accurate or in her favour. if she chooses to live a extravagent lifestyle that is a choice and not a sign of financial struggle.

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It's not up to you to guestimate her income, accurate or in her favor. It's inappropriate for you to discuss it with others as you state you have been doing. And it's certainly not up to you to determine what is or isn't or may or may not be an "extravagant lifestyle" for her income, or determine what that means related to her financial struggle. Doing so is merely speculation, it does you no favors, makes you look bitter, not to mention it's nosey because it's none of your business.

Let the court decide what child support should be. Have it taken out of her income. The rest of it is none of your business to speculate about.

i will agree that it is not nornal that a person would be aware of her expenses. i am aware i did not cover all costs eg clothing but i did cover all essential other than clothing which would not need to cost $40k per year. there is a difference between choosing expensive stuff or buying things you don't need to and struggling to make ends meet.

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None of your business. You don't determine how she spends her personal income, or if it means that her financial issues are legitimate. You're divorced, you're not involved in her income, it's not your place to say that her lifestyle is extravagant or not, especially considering you have no idea what her income or expenses really are... You're just speculating. Just because her income level would reduce your financial stress to almost nothing, doesn't mean it does for her, or that she's leading some extravagant lifestyle.

Like I said, my husband's nutty ex does this all the time. A couple months ago she asked my husband to pay a medical bill for one of the kids that's 4 years old. He reminded her that because what the amount he pays in support is so high and he pays 100% of the kid's insurance costs AND still provides her insurance (and foots the bill) when he doesn't have to, paying superfluous medical bills is her responsibility unless there was some extraordinary circumstance, especially as the bill was so old. She said the bill was going to go to collections if she didn't get money immediately, and again, he said that the bill was her responsibility, she should have dealt with it 4 years ago, and regardless, we didn't have the money to cover it in such a short period of time. She complained and moaned about how broke she is, how she struggles, how she's always broke, how we were unfair, how we make so much more then she does so we should pay it, etc etc etc. In the end, it's not our financial responsibility and we had no money to help her out at the time. Our extra money and savings was going to car repairs, paying off our son's medical bills, and replacing a glass door on our home that was broken... It wiped us out. Of course she didn't know that, of course we didn't tell her as it's none of her business, but we simply couldn't afford it with 24 hours notice. The bill went unpaid, it's in collections, and she can't settle it until she finds out if they're taking her to court.

Flash forward a couple of months, I got a bonus from work and took money out of a large settlement I got to pay off the car and all our credit card bills, giving us an extra $800 a month to ourselves. I got a higher paying job, a bonus, and our taxes came back. Our financial situation went from dire to very comfortable as a result. My husband decided to celebrate what was the cumulative effort of several years of hard financial living to get our ducks in a row, pay off our debt, and have a different lifestyle as a result, by taking us out to dinner, giving me roses, a gorgeous amethyst ring, and telling me that he entered me in the Disney marathon I'd been dreaming of running in for the better part of a decade, something I've been training for for the last 6 months... All of which was a huge surprise.

She immediately responded by complaining to all of our friends and family that while she struggles to just get food on the table and has to go to court over their kid's medical bills that have gone to collections, we live an extravagant lifestyle, and that we lied when we said we couldn't afford to pay the medical bill. Of course she left out that we work more then triple the hours she does, she chooses to work less, that she left the medical bill delinquent for 4 years and gave us 24 hours notice to pay it, that it wasn't our responsibility to begin with, that 50% of his take-home goes to the kids and that he pays her medical insurance still, and that a large reason for the change in our lifestyle came from living on $100 a week disposable income and hucking the rest at bills. And that a huge portion of it came from my personal income, which she has no rights to at all. She also left out that she's paying for a trip to Disney, money that could have (and should have) gone to the bill she neglected, but she didn't want to cancel because "she deserved it."

In short, you don't know what her financial obligations are, it's not your place to speculate. Go to court if you have problems, but keep the rest of it to yourself.

TheDag said:

no i got annoyed because you were telling me to do exactly what I have already done. why is it so hard for you to understand that?

I do that and she says I will get back to you and doesn't. I already explained that and once again you have chosen to ignore that fact in your advice.

once again fuill of assumptions. Yeah I have spoken to people about it. Guess who I spoke to? A thing called Child Support Agency.

Except they can't force her to give an accurate estimate. They also can't force her to do her tax return so they can get accurate income. Good you have now acknowledged your earlier claim that tax returns have nothing to do with child support was wrong.


I didn't say it was impossible just that she doesn't have financial problems now. Penalty for not doing a tax return on time is 1 penalty unit per month with a maximum of 5 penalty units plus interest. Last I checked a penalty unit is $110 so a maximum of $550 times 9 (I think) for the number of years she has not lodged a tax return plus interest which is not capped. I know it is unusual to be as knowledgable about her expenses as I am but fact is I am. Only reason I am uncertain about her income is because I don't know how much extra she earns from writing on top of her full time job for which I do know her income.

if she wants to live an extravagent lifestyle I couldn't care less as long as she honors her obligations. No matter what you say $40k to spend with clothing being the only essential item and spending it all is extravagent.

Courts do not decide what child support should be in Australia. The Child Support Agency does that. You have not addressed why I should receive less money than I am entitled to. With her child support income being so far below her actual income she is stealing. Stealing is always considered unacceptable in society. The assesment from child support shows her income provided and acknowledges it is a provisional amount as opposed to my income listed on the assesment which is not provisional and reflects my last tax return. They can only work it out on information they have. If that information is wrong then the figure by logical conclusion is wrong. If her income was only a few thousand below her actual income I wouldn't care but it is actually at least $37k below her actual income. That would make a difference of hundreds of dollars.

The only expense I speculated on was utilities because I am not certain exactly what her electricity bill is. I worked it out based on what the electricity bill was when the three of us were living in the same house. When together I worked part time and was primary carer for our son. That meant i was home more often and more electricity being used. Any other expenses are unneccesary so that leaves her disposable income at that. As I said she can spend that on whatever she likes provided she meets her obligations first.

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Well then it's hopeless. Nothing you can ever do, there is no solution you could ever find, no conversation you could ever have, and no court in the country that could assist you. Your ex is awful, terrible, vengeful, exists only to get your goat. She is able to fabricate her income, pay what she likes in child support whenever she likes, and nobody can do anything about it. The courts are powerless to check her income or enforce child support, they operate merely on her word on what she makes, which she under-reports and they don't attempt to prove or correct. No custody agreement on earth can withstand the whims of your ex, nor could they be enforced. You have no recourse, at all, ever, for anything. You've tried all you care to try, none of it works, there's no point to discussing it because everything is utterly hopeless.

how dare you tell me it is not my place to comment on what her financial obligations are right after you talk about your husbands ex's financial obligations. You are telling me to do exactly what your not doing!

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A quick recap, since apparently you didn't read what I wrote... I recounted our financial obligations, not hers. The things I said about her:

She works less then we do... She does.
She is on food stamps... She is.
She complains of being broke constantly... Which is true.

None of these things are in dispute by anybody. In fact, it's pretty much a core fact.

Other things I said... That there was a bill she let ride for 4 years, gave us 24 hours to pay, and because we didn't give her money and she didn't pay it, the bill went to collections. Again, not in dispute or speculation... We knew about the bill and we know it didn't get paid because we got notice from her and were warned by her creditor that it would go to collections. I also said she was going on a girls-only vacation... Also true, as we have the kids that week because of said vacation.

At no time or point did I say that because she gets x amount from working and y amount from social benefits, and her bills can't possibly be more then z amount, that she has enough money to meet her financial obligations and thus shouldn't be bothering us. Honestly, if I had to speculate, I'd say that I don't know how she manages to get buy considering she works so little and I don't doubt that she didn't have money to cover that bill. I don't know how she covers her regular bills, to be honest. It's been implied that my husband's mother gives her money, but I have no idea. I know that she has had power and cable shut off due to non-payment because the kids had to stay with us while she waited for them to switch their power back on and because we, for years, got the phone calls about her delinquency. Again, this isn't speculation or assumption about her finances or bill paying habits, these are things that have happened. I didn't say "I don't know why she doesn't pay her bills because she makes this and the bill can't be more then that, which gives her this much left over." I don't know, honestly, I don't care.

Do I think it's idiotic to allow a bill of like $200 go to collections because she can't afford it and complains of being poor, while simultaneously planning an adults-only vacation? Do I think it's ridiculous that we hang on to the kids so that she can go shopping for a party she's throwing for her best friend while she's getting power disconnect notices? Of course I do. My husband and I both do, actually. But he doesn't get on the phone and say "I send you X every week, what do you do with it? Why can you afford a $2500 vacation for yourself but not a bill less then $200? The bill was less then what you get every week in child support, why didn't you use that?" or "You claim to be broke and suffering, so why are you using money that's probably coming off my child support checks to pay for your bestie's party and then hit me up for more money on a doctor's bill that you ignored until the last possible second?" We say yes we can foot the bill and it will come out of the next X number week's child support, or in this case no, we can't foot the bill right now because we can't afford it.

if that's the financial life she wants to make for herself, that's her business and her problem. I don't spend my time speculating what she is making vs what she's spending and then assume that she has enough to do what she needs to do. Nobody even calls her on the baloney of things like happily taking a full child support payment for a week that she doesn't have the kids because she's on vacation... Her finances, her problem. My husband pays his support, the rest is up to her.

Kind of a big difference between "knowing" the salary of an ex and all of her expenses, determining how much extra money she has in her income that is mad money, and then declaring that she must be fine financially and if she's not, it's because she's living a life of luxury.

TheDag said:

Tropical you are deliberately misrepresenting what i have said. i ak
lready pointed out that i did not realise courts can set specific dates for visits and i also acknoeledged court was on option. yet in your response you make out that i claim court is not an option. that us very deceitful on your part.

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You've given a parade of excuses for why nothing would ever work. I've tried to talk to you about it, you continue to insist that, in spite of everything, it won't work. Even in the court agreement, you said it wouldn't work because it would involve getting her to agree to something and she won't.

All the advice that you've been given won't work for various reasons. After outlining to you steps you could take, you said that I told you to just make her do what you want (which I never did... So does that mean you're deceitful?). After you didn't get what I said, I broke it down and gave an example. Then I was patronizing. Then came a list of reasons why nothing in the world could possibly work.

Again, your situation isn't unique. You can decide to work it out for the best interests of your child, or you can be defeatest and say nothing works ever. It's up to you.

You were critical of your husbands ex wife for taking a disney holiday yet not paying a bill. so yes you are sticking your nose into her business which you are being critical of me doing.

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No... I was critical of my husband's ex presenting to us her bill and telling us that we needed to pay for it because she couldn't afford it because she was paying for a vacation, despite the fact that the bill was clearly her responsibility. I was critical about how her lack of paying the bill translated into us setting her up to fail. I was critical that she assumed that because we make more money then her, we have more money available, and that she can present us with a bill that's hers and expect us to pay it, then trash talk us when we don't... All while leaving out that the bill was her fault to begin with.

I could care less if she pays the bill or not. She can leave it delinquent for another 4 years for all I care. I took issue with her deciding she was an expert in our finances and could dictate what we could and couldn't afford, used that to place blame on us for not fixing her finances, and that she was doing so to our peers.

The point of the story, for the last time, that you, the ex, cannot possibly have any idea of what her financial state is or should be based off of what you presume her income to be. It's not any of your business, and you shouldn't be making it your business to know how she spends her money. As long as you get what's owed you, the rest is so none of your business and certainly not for you to speculate on or advertise to others. If you have an issue, take it to court, let them settle it and be done with it.

Courts can order her to do her tax return but only if the tax office takes action. i can not take legal action to make her do tax returns. child support agency are the ones who said their hands are tied if she does not do tax returns. they can do a assessment during the year upon request if she goes from unemployed to employed. that however is not the case. That info came from child support. she has always paid child support just that i have often had to ring up and say i haven't received child support gas tgere been some delay with your pay? Never has been a delay according to her she just firgit.

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Like I said, a basic search online shows that in your country when there's a change in income or you contest the amount she's claiming as child support eligible income, you can contest it, and they audit her current income and they use that figure along with yours to determine a percentage of support and the amount that she should pay.

Apparently this is in effect for everybody but you and your ex. She is the only one in the whole country who can pull a number out of thin air, call it her income, and that's the end of it. It's not that she makes less then you assume she does, it's not that the court can audit her current income to make sure she's reporting it, it's not that decisions can come based off of presumed taxes despite filing... None of it is the case, she can just do her own thing and that's the way it goes. So again, I don't know what to tell you.

Personally, if it were me and I felt so intensely that my ex had some vast wealth she was hiding from the primary guardians of her kids, I could give less then two craps that my pursuing it legally could result in fines and legal problems for her. You complain she doesn't do enough, but you don't want to follow through on the steps to make sure she does, nor do you particularly want to pursue anything, though you're adamant that even if you did, it wouldn't amount to anything anyway because none of it would ever work. So, again... I don't know what to tell you.

Like I said, it's all hopeless. Nothing you can do.

TheDag said:

My ex-wife and i agreed that she would make travel arrangements for our son to visit at least one month before school holidays. So far she has not done that once. She has always made arrangements quickly once reminded. Frankly i am sick of it. I adjusted to her poor planning skills while we were married but when she chose to walk out as far as I'm concerbef i don't have to put up with that. I asked that she have plane tickets booked one month before. I compromised and agreed to just confirming dates of travel. Since she does not do this what do people think is a reasonable consequence if she fails to follow the agreement made. just to be clear there are no court orders in place. I personally think making plans for the holidays if she doesn't and just saying tough luck if she makes plans and they conflict with mine.

I want the one month notice so i have time to make plans not just what to do in holidays with my son but also make plans for when he is away to do things with friends that i can't normally do as a single parent.
My son does like spending time with his mum.

My plan is to work out a reasonable consequence and inform her that will happen if she fails to keep to the agreement.

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how old is your son?

he must be a teenager if he makes plan with his friends?

if your ex wife is such scatter brain, why can not your son ( if he is a teenager) take over some of the planning? or help his poor mother out a bit?

seriously, regardless what you choose to do, don't take it personally, you know your ex is not doing this out of malice, she is a scatter brain.

also have you considered moving to the same city as your ex so you can spend more time with your son?

TheDag said:

Any suggestions on how to get her to keep to the agreement she made? I can't think of anything that will make her keep to the agreement which does not go as far as I would like but I compromised. I have only been able to think of one thing and that would affect my son in a bad way so I don't want to do that but I don't want to be constantly chasing her up before I can make plans.

Let me put this another way. What should I do if she books holidays for the same week of the holidays that I made plans for? Who gets first choice then? If I just make plans without consulting then risk that things get arranged for the same week. Do I cancel my plans even if I have paid money? Does she cancel her plans and then have to frantically arrange child care since she doesn't have holidays after all? Or are you saying I should just be the one to always be chasing her up? I agree with the bible when it says let your yes be yes and your no be no. She has said yes she will do something and I don't believe I am being unreasonable in expecting her to do it. That is no different from any friend. Bear in mind she has been married to me for close to a decade and she knows that about me. She also would frequently complain when the father of her other son would not get back to her so it is something she doesn't like people doing to her. I have asked her what is needed for her to do what she promised but no response.

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I want to apologize for my harsh response. This is an issue that I have had to deal with and I realize that I projected my issues onto you. Please forgive me.