advice needed with custody arrangements

[TheDag]

My ex-wife and i agreed that she would make travel arrangements for our son to visit at least one month before school holidays. So far she has not done that once. She has always made arrangements quickly once reminded. Frankly i am sick of it. I adjusted to her poor planning skills while we were married but when she chose to walk out as far as I'm concerbef i don't have to put up with that. I asked that she have plane tickets booked one month before. I compromised and agreed to just confirming dates of travel. Since she does not do this what do people think is a reasonable consequence if she fails to follow the agreement made. just to be clear there are no court orders in place. I personally think making plans for the holidays if she doesn't and just saying tough luck if she makes plans and they conflict with mine.

I want the one month notice so i have time to make plans not just what to do in holidays with my son but also make plans for when he is away to do things with friends that i can't normally do as a single parent.
My son does like spending time with his mum.

My plan is to work out a reasonable consequence and inform her that will happen if she fails to keep to the agreement.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

She's your ex-wife, not your child. If you have nothing formal in place with the courts and she doesn't adhere to what you worked out privately... Oh well. It's the penalty of not getting a court order.

If you want things to work differently, take her to court. Otherwise... There are really no "consequences" you can apply to her for not listening to you. And really, in the grand scheme of things, not having a month's notice of travel plans related to your son... Not a big deal. Pick your battles or book the airfare yourself once you work out your dates and times with her.

I'll tell you now how booking it all and then telling her to adhere to it, without taking into account her plans... Not well.

Divorce means you're not married. It doesn't mean they stop being a pain in your butt.

 

[abysmul]

Are you legally divorced? If so, doesn't there have to be custody papers, because that would be the first place to turn to.

 

[dayhiker]

Dag, that's a tough one, I can't think of a way you can force her to do anything.

But if she responds once you have asked her about her plans for the flight, just ask her a month before each visit.

 

[TheDag]

Are you legally divorced? If so, doesn't there have to be custody papers, because that would be the first place to turn to.

Not legally divorced. here in Oz court ordered custody arrangements are only if you can't agree on arrangements. if you go to court they require you to go to mediation before court to save court time.
We agreed without mediation so no legally binding arrangement.

 

[TheDag]

Dag, that's a tough one, I can't think of a way you can force her to do anything.

But if she responds once you have asked her about her plans for the flight, just ask her a month before each visit.

I believe she needs consequences to make sure she does things. i spoke to her day after deadline and she still hasn't done anything one week later.
I do realise i can't make her do anything but if there are consequences then it could motivate her to do right thing. i do want to be reasonable in consequences. she thinks my threat to start making arrangements and if her arrangements clash with mine then i don't bother putting little one on the plane is not reasonable. i would of course wait until after the deadline before making any plans.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Again, go to court, get an order.

It's not up to you to give your ex "consequences" for not listening to you or adhering to your informal agreement. She's your ex, not your wife, not your child. Consequences only come by the court on formal agreements, it's not up to you to exact some sort of street justice for the transgression of not listening to you, especially when it involves your child.

The idea that you just make the plans and tell her to deal with it... That won't help and she won't adhere to it if it doesn't work for her. Keeping the child past when you said you would, obviously, won't help either... You're the non-custodial parent.

When you won't return the child to the custodial parent, it's called kidnapping.

Get a court order, let the court deal with it. In the meantime, get her on the phone, find out what works for her, and make the plans yourself if it's so important to you. Do anything else more drastic, you put your custody in jeopardy. Again, in the scope of choosing one's battles, getting upset because you weren't given exact dates more then a month in advance is so small in the grand scheme of things, one wonders why you'd get in a twist over it, especially as you said yourself that when it gets closer, she makes the reservations just fine, you'd just prefer to have a lot of head notice because whatever plans you're making apparently take a month to solidify.

If you live this far apart and she's the primary custodial parent, this is part of what you have to accept and deal with when you have no court order.

 

[abysmul]

At this point, you are being reasonable, and she is not (so it seems). I'd document in writing the specifics YOU agree to, as in: she must give X amount of notice and if she doesn't then X will happen (like no visit). Explain that is only fair to all parties (including the child/children involved) that everyone know the exact plans in a reasonable time.

 

[Hetta]

This just sounds awful for the poor child in the middle. Giving "consequences" by not returning the child or whatever would only escalate the situation and leave him utterly confused and feeling he cannot trust his parents to sort this out in an adult manner. What does it matter when she books the tickets? So long as there is a firm date as to when the child will be visiting, that should be all that matters.

Anyone who starts withholding a minor child is just asking for police/court involvement.

 

[TheDag]

Please note i am the custodial parent not her. I also clearly stated why i want plans made one montj in advance. firstly i need to know when i have to take time off work. is that so unreasonable? My sister akso takes holidays so when i am out of holidays she takes time off work to look after him during school holidays. both our employers require notice as our work can not wait and must be assigned to someone else. if they need to get a temp in that takes time. hence notice is required.

please also explain why i have to be the one constantly chasing her. what is unreasonable about expecting people to do what they say they would? My son does enjoy 6 weeks of visits per year to his mum and i don't want to deprive him of that but facts are that i need to be able to make arrangements and should be given time to do this. What if i want to take him somewhere? I have to book accomodation which can be more expensive the later you book or places could be booked out.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Please note i am the custodial parent not her. I also clearly stated why i want plans made one montj in advance. firstly i need to know when i have to take time off work. is that so unreasonable? My sister akso takes holidays so when i am out of holidays she takes time off work to look after him during school holidays. both our employers require notice as our work can not wait and must be assigned to someone else. if they need to get a temp in that takes time. hence notice is required.

please also explain why i have to be the one constantly chasing her. what is unreasonable about expecting people to do what they say they would? My son does enjoy 6 weeks of visits per year to his mum and i don't want to deprive him of that but facts are that i need to be able to make arrangements and should be given time to do this. What if i want to take him somewhere? I have to book accomodation which can be more expensive the later you book or places could be booked out.

If you're the custodial parent, then wouldn't that mean that you'd know pretty well how you have to change your schedule to accommodate having your child around? I mean, I don't want to be rude here, but that would mean that you have the child most of the time, so you know how the schedule is going to play out and would know how to divide out your time... I mean, if I have a month's head notice or not, I know what has to happen long ahead of time, regardless of what their mother's plan is... So why would you need the advance notice on the wiggle room which is going to essentially be just a few days?

If you're the custodial parent, why wouldn't you be the one who's not central to the plans being made? Because you want a month's notice on when you're going to have your son, who you have most of the time anyway, you feel that you should be allowed to set a consequence for your ex for not giving you the notice that you'd have your son who you have most of the time anyway? I mean, are you asking here that because you don't feel like you've been given enough time to make plans to accommodate the child you'd have with you all the time anyway, is it OK to tell your ex your mutual son can't come to visit anymore? The answer to that is still no...

Co-parenting after a divorce, it's complicated, but put down the scoresheet of who does what more and how often and when and just do what you have to do to make a stable environment for your child. Seriously, this seems like such a nit-picky, non-argument. Worry more about your child, less about sending your ex a message by trying to exert what is essentially a marital dynamic in a situation that's representative of an informal agreement.

 

[cam44]

This just sounds awful for the poor child in the middle. Giving "consequences" by not returning the child or whatever would only escalate the situation and leave him utterly confused and feeling he cannot trust his parents to sort this out in an adult manner.

I agree with this.

If you go down the road of consequences imo you are going to escalate/create more issues and difficulties ... you're frustrated but try to keep a cool head.

 

[TheDag]

Tropical wilds please at least address the points i have raised. the points are

1. i need to take annual leave from work. they require 4 weeks notice.

2. My sister takes holidays to look after him as well. there are 12 weeks a year he is not at school and we get 4 weeks holidays from work per year. my sister must give notice for her holidays. due to her role she can not take holidays while certain others are on holidays so she must apply before they do. hence advance notice is required.

Also what if i make arrangenents to go interstate and visit theme parks. i buy tickets in advance for the oarks as it saves money. i buy plane tickets in advance because it saves money. i book accomodstion in advance because it fills up and people who miss out have to drive a long way to get thetr. i don't have a car due to medical condition so i need the close accomodation. say i do all that and she books holidays and plane tickets for the same time. who then will get him during that time? Who will look after him when nobody has time off work as it is illegal to leave him home by himself?

As i said before and explained before there are reasons for needing the notice. My ex knows that and agreed to give required notice. Once i didn't chase her up and she gave two days notice. so uf i don't ssy anything it is not a couple of days difference like you suggest.

 

[TheDag]

I agree with this.

If you go down the road of consequences imo you are going to escalate/create more issues and difficulties ... you're frustrated but try to keep a cool head.

I'm trying to keep a cool head but getting more difficult. techniques i have used in the oadt for keeping my cool aren't as effective these days.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Tropical wilds please at least address the points i have raised. the points are

1. i need to take annual leave from work. they require 4 weeks notice.

2. My sister takes holidays to look after him as well. there are 12 weeks a year he is not at school and we get 4 weeks holidays from work per year. my sister must give notice for her holidays. due to her role she can not take holidays while certain others are on holidays so she must apply before they do. hence advance notice is required.

Ok... But if you have your son full time, you know what days you'll need to make sure you have daycare set up because your wife won't have him most of the time. And if your son is in school, which it sounds like he is, then unless he's missing weeks upon weeks of school (which is really inadvisable), you know roughly when he's coming back. So... Make your plans around that.

I mean, honestly, I'm not sure why this isn't being booked as a round-trip to begin with.

Also what if i make arrangenents to go interstate and visit theme parks. i buy tickets in advance for the oarks as it saves money. i buy plane tickets in advance because it saves money. i book accomodstion in advance because it fills up and people who miss out have to drive a long way to get thetr. i don't have a car due to medical condition so i need the close accomodation. say i do all that and she books holidays and plane tickets for the same time. who then will get him during that time? Who will look after him when nobody has time off work as it is illegal to leave him home by himself?

Ok... So don't book a vacation during a window in which your ex could have your son. Wait a week, a few weeks, a month, etc, from when your son is due back to book your trips. If your wife is due to have your son for July, then make your theme park plans for August. Problem solved.

As i said before and explained before there are reasons for needing the notice. My ex knows that and agreed to give required notice. Once i didn't chase her up and she gave two days notice. so uf i don't ssy anything it is not a couple of days difference like you suggest.

If you know your wife is going to have your son for 3 weeks, you know roughly when he's coming back, give or take a few days. If you are working around his school schedule, which you should be if he's of school age, then you know the latest he can be coming back. So plan around that. If you want a specific date, call her, tell her what window you need him back by, ask her what works, and book the return flight yourself. Or make it a round trip booking when you do the flight out.

Without a court order, this is how it works. I suggest opening the lines of communication with your ex for the benefit of your son, vs stewing over how to properly punish your ex for not adhering to your schedule. I mean, seriously, this is what all of us do with our joint custody arraignments. Hate your ex all you want, but put it aside to work out what's best for the kids.

 

[TheDag]

Tropical you are still missing the point. i can call her all i want but that doesn't mean she gives me an abswer. that is one problem. second problem is through discussion we arrive at a mutual agreement which i happily compromised to obtain. she won't follow agreement. if this was a court arrangement there would be consequences for not following it. of course there would be zero flexibility in that!

First you say i should arrange trips around school holidays then you advise me to take my kid away on holidays during school time. make up your mind please. i will not have him miss school unless he is too sick to go.
why do you suggest i should be the only one paying transport costs for his visits. that is what would happen if i just went ahead and purchased tickets. I have had to chase her for child support as well. it isn't like she is struggling financially as she earns over $90k a year.
she had always been big on empahsising cause and effect. The only way your advice would work is if rather than commynicating and working things out i just told her exactly when and where. so is that your advice? Do i decide everything abd give her no choice in anything?

 

[TheDag]

Note well IT IS NOT MY SCHEDULE BUT WHAT SHE AGREED TO AND RULES FORCED ON ME that is dictating the one months notice. with one months notice i have only one or two days to put in leave application or for my sister to put in a leave application. the only outside school care does not operate during holidays and holiday programs also require advance applications.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Tropical you are still missing the point. i can call her all i want but that doesn't mean she gives me an abswer. that is one problem. second problem is through discussion we arrive at a mutual agreement which i happily compromised to obtain. she won't follow agreement. if this was a court arrangement there would be consequences for not following it. of course there would be zero flexibility in that!

So then get a court order. Have her agree to a start and end date and book round-trip tickets. Really, this isn't that hard at all. We all have to do it.

What I think you're trying to drive at here is if it's OK, because your ex is a great inconvenience to you, if it's OK to give her the consequence of not seeing your mutual son because the hassle of dealing with her irregularity is too much. The answer to that is an unconditional no, of course. There are a lot of things you can do to make this easier on yourself that you've yet to pursue that, for some reason, you choose not to do.

Most of us have ex's that are pains. My husband's ex declared she was going out of town at the end of April and wasn't taking the kids, so we had to. She didn't confer about dates or anything, just said she'd be gone. The dates didn't work for us, she refused to change them. So I have to take off time from my job to accommodate her vacation by caring for the kids because my husband couldn't get the time off from his, long-standing plans we had over the weekend had to be cancelled (I was training for a marathon that weekend), and I have to shorten a vacation we were taking a few weeks later because I can't get that much time off in such a short time. Can we respond by not giving the kids back? Nope. She's a brat and a pain who neither of us can stand to deal with or look at, but it's what we deal with to be on good terms with the kids. Not saying that we're not counting the days until they're 18 and we don't have to deal with her, but for right now...

Take her to court. Cement the plans yourself. Make round-trip tickets. Outline everything before he leaves. There are a million things you could do.

First you say i should arrange trips around school holidays then you advise me to take my kid away on holidays during school time. make up your mind please. i will not have him miss school unless he is too sick to go.

I didn't say that you should take him away on holidays during school time... Just the opposite actually. I just said that, when you're making plans, make plans for after you know he will be back and don't overlap into your ex's time, or make the plans abutting when he's supposed to be back (which is common sense anyway, even in non divorce situations).

And if you're planning around school vacations, this becomes even easier. To get him back before school starts, you know what days he has to be back by. So say that he has to be back on X, Y, or Z day because you can't do days A, B, or C, and then set up daycare around days X, Y, and Z, or ask for the time off for those days.

why do you suggest i should be the only one paying transport costs for his visits. that is what would happen if i just went ahead and purchased tickets. I have had to chase her for child support as well. it isn't like she is struggling financially as she earns over $90k a year.

I didn't say you are the only one who pays for transportation. Set it up and ask for reimbursement. Or, again, do round trip tickets. Or, as I've said about 10 times already, go to court, get a court order, set up who pays to get him from point A to point B (but be prepared for the court to say it's you if you're the one who moved away and/or is the primary custodial parent and/or you make more then her... In our state, the primary custodial parent pays for transportation costs, period, with no debate).

As for how much you presume/assume she makes, that doesn't mean she is or isn't struggling. But if she's having a hard time getting you child support... Guess what? Go to court. Get a court order. Get a system where they draft it right from her check to you. Find out how much she should be paying, get a child support agreement filed, and the issue is resolved.

Having an ex you have kids with is a pain in the butt, but that's why we have the court system... Structure for the kids, structure in handoffs for the adults, and less to argue about.

she had always been big on empahsising cause and effect. The only way your advice would work is if rather than commynicating and working things out i just told her exactly when and where. so is that your advice? Do i decide everything abd give her no choice in anything?

I don't want to be rude, but if your communication with her is as erratic as it is here, or you derive so much from what isn't being said, it's really no wonder you have communication issues.

I said communicate with her directly and work things out. I did not say do your own thing and give her no choice. I said book round-trip tickets so you know when he's going and when he's coming back. I said plan it around vacations, which it sounds like you do already, so you know roughly (give or take a few days) when he's coming back. I said talk to her and then make the reservations to make sure everybody is on the same page. I said go to court, get it hammered out in court so everybody knows what's expected of them.

Note well IT IS NOT MY SCHEDULE BUT WHAT SHE AGREED TO AND RULES FORCED ON ME that is dictating the one months notice. with one months notice i have only one or two days to put in leave application or for my sister to put in a leave application. the only outside school care does not operate during holidays and holiday programs also require advance applications.

And if you're planning around vacations, you have a rough idea of when he needs to be back by. Tell your ex which of those days works best for you, get an agreed upon date, ask for the time off, get round-trip tickets, and call it done. Seriously, you're making it far more complicated and full of animosity then you really need to.

 

[TheDag]

I don't want to be rude, but if your communication with her is as erratic as it is here, or you derive so much from what isn't being said, it's really no wonder you have communication issues.

I said communicate with her directly and work things out. I did not say do your own thing and give her no choice. I said book round-trip tickets so you know when he's going and when he's coming back. I said plan it around vacations, which it sounds like you do already, so you know roughly (give or take a few days) when he's coming back. I said talk to her and then make the reservations to make sure everybody is on the same page. I said go to court, get it hammered out in court so everybody knows what's expected of them.



And if you're planning around vacations, you have a rough idea of when he needs to be back by. Tell your ex which of those days works best for you, get an agreed upon date, ask for the time off, get round-trip tickets, and call it done. Seriously, you're making it far more complicated and full of animosity then you really need to.

you did say give her no choice. what else do you call telling her what works best for me. that is not giving her a choice unless of course you mean tell her what works best and then begotiate or wait for agreement which just leaves me at square one again as i can't firce her to make a decision. if i go to court then there still needs to be discussion as court would only order set amount of time during holidays not which specific dates during holidays so once again back to square one.

Yeah you did say take vacation during school time. you said book trip for when i know i woukd have my son. if dates are not agreed on then only time i know i will have him is during school time. i know you didn't mean to say that but that is the practical working of what you suggested.

Your other advice to just book plane tickets also means giving her no choice unlesd we agree on dates before i book tickets. of course if i could get her to agree on dates then i wouldn't have this problem.

So your advice is to get court orders and try to get it included that it must be worked out by a certain date.

By the way my estimate of her income is either accurate or less than her actual income. getting child support taken out if her pay is an option. of course i would get significntly less than entitled as she has not done a tax return recently so income child support uses to work out amount to be paid is based on her previous job with $52k income. perhaps that us just something i have to deal with.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

you did say give her no choice. what else do you call telling her what works best for me. that is not giving her a choice unless of course you mean tell her what works best and then begotiate or wait for agreement which just leaves me at square one again as i can't firce her to make a decision.

Seriously?

You tell her what works for you, she tells you what works for her. You compare dates, find the day that works the best. Then you plan accordingly. In no way does me saying "tell her what works best for you" mean you just do everything and make her deal with it. I honestly didn't think I'd have to outline for you how to have a discussion with somebody...

No, you can't force her to make a decision, but you can say "I need to get these dates nailed down so I can book the round trip tickets, so let me know so I can book something. I'm waiting to hear on you until then." That puts the ball pretty firmly in her court.

Again, you're making this much harder then it needs to be.

if i go to court then there still needs to be discussion as court would only order set amount of time during holidays not which specific dates during holidays so once again back to square one.

Actually, court can do both. My husband's court order is flexible since they discuss these things, but the options were given where if one or the other felt the other was being erratic, they'd set the dates as part of the custody agreement and it'd be re-visited yearly with a mediator.

Yeah you did say take vacation during school time. you said book trip for when i know i woukd have my son. if dates are not agreed on then only time i know i will have him is during school time. i know you didn't mean to say that but that is the practical working of what you suggested.

So if you know he's gone for all vacations anyway, then what's the crank about? You wouldn't be making plans anyway, he's gone. So you know not to make plans for that time.

Your other advice to just book plane tickets also means giving her no choice unlesd we agree on dates before i book tickets. of course if i could get her to agree on dates then i wouldn't have this problem.

How does working with her to come up with a date to book tickets for a round trip mean that she's getting no choice? You ask for the dates, when you have a date to go and come back, you make the booking. Until you have both, you don't. Or tell her she has to book it as a round trip when you agree on dates.

So your advice is to get court orders and try to get it included that it must be worked out by a certain date.

My advice is to go to court, get a mediator, and see that this is really much easier then you're making it out to be.

By the way my estimate of her income is either accurate or less than her actual income. getting child support taken out if her pay is an option. of course i would get significntly less than entitled as she has not done a tax return recently so income child support uses to work out amount to be paid is based on her previous job with $52k income. perhaps that us just something i have to deal with.

The amount of money one makes isn't indicative of if they have financial issues or not. Just because she's making 90k doesn't mean that she's not having hardships. Regardless, she should be paying her child support.

You know what could help with that?

Yup, a court order.

And income that goes to child support has nothing to do with when you do your taxes. You both bring your pay stubs, maybe a few, they average it, then they determine your child support entitlement from that, based off of your and her income.

So... Get a court order. Have it taken out of her checks.

Again, you're making this all unnecessarily complicated. It makes me wonder, as I said, if the real question isn't because you don't like dealing with your ex if it'd be OK to just not give her visitation.