Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

[BobRyan]

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment -

vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") --
vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)
See Job 1, and Job 2 for the interest/focus of heavenly courts on the saints vs the wicked..
vs 21, 22,25 Persecution of saints happens WHILE this courtroom judgment in Dan 7 takes place - and continues - until judgment completes.
vs 27 "Then comes the ADVENT" -- so all the above is "pre-Advent"

vs 9 begins after the rise and fall of the 4th empire in Dan 7 (Pagan Rome)
We see the investigative judgment in vs 9-10 (investigating out of the content of books of record) in this courtroom.

Dan 7:​

9 “I kept looking​

Until thrones were set up,​

And the Ancient of Days took His seat;​

His garment was white as snow,​

And the hair of His head like pure wool.​

His throne was ablaze with flames,​

Its wheels were a burning fire.​

10 A river of fire was flowing​

And coming out from before Him;​

Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,​

And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;​

The court convened,​

And the books were opened.​

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.​

Job 1 and Job 2 give us a clear view of how the court is very interested in those claimed to be saints - taking a lot of time to review the details - but is not very interested in the idea of proving that the wicked who oppress Job "are indeed wicked" ... since that part is obvious to all. In fact in Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned" so from the heavenly court POV the interesting part is that there is A SAINT. That claim is reviewed closely as we see in Job 1 and also in 2 Cor 5:10 "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (we -- means this includes the saints)

Rev 20 describes this concept of "judgment out of books of record" -- this way

Rev 20:21 "... and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

And so it is in the Dan 7 example of the same thing "the court sat, the books were opened... until judgment was passed in favor of the saints"

1. as we see in 2 Cor 5:10 EACH one judge based on "deeds done in the body whether good or bad".
2. As we see in Rom 2:4-16 failing cases compared to succeeding cases - according to deeds "DOERS of the law will be justified" Rom 2:13
3. As we see in Matt 7 - "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord - but he who DOES"

By Contrast: The idea of "judgment passed in favor of the saints ... out of the books of record" without a single detail about any saint being considered -- is total nonsense as the objective unbiased Bible student will note
.
================================================
Persecution of saints happens WHILE this courtroom judgment in Dan 7 takes place - and continues - until judgment completes.

23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.​

​

Then the kingdom of this world is turned over to Christ and saints. This is the Advent of Christ so all that came before is pre-advent

27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’​

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 7 , 8 and 9 use day-for-year apocalyptic timelines as the 490 years of Dan 9 plainly show. This the case for the 1260 years for Dan 7 and Rev 11, and Rev 12 and Rev 13. They all refer to that same 1260 year period of dark-ages-persecution of the saints.

The Dan 7 events clearly take place before Christ comes and the kingdom is turned over to Him as Dan 7 states.

In the following thread we find that 457 BC is the start of the 490 years of Dan 9 and they predict the first coming of Christ.

Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Dan 7

(In light of many of the recent all-ellen-white-all-the-time-threads) I thought it would be a refreshing switch to have a Bible topic we all have the background info to discuss. The title is sure to catch the attention of one or two members here. Dan 9 has a 70 weeks (490 days... becomes...

www.christianforums.com

In that thread we also see that Dan 8 and 9 are two parts of the same timeline where Dan 8 gives us a 2300 year timeline but has no start date... and Dan 9 provides the start date "explanation of the vision" in Dan 8.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 7 and 8 are linked by the fact that both deal with the little horn persecuting the saints. But in Dan 7 the "solution" to that problem is the pre-advent investigative judgdment - but in Dan 8 the solution is called "The sanctuary will be cleansed" Dan 8:13-14

"The process" in that judgment used to determine pass/fail is described in Rom 2:4-16.

Rom 2 shows the PROCESS that they use in that judgment

Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

That gospel process of Judgment is shown to deal with both the succeeding cases and the failing cases - and it uses the Matt 7 principle of Christ "by their fruits you shall know them"

The Law written on the heart (vs 15) is because of the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and also in Heb 8.
Reward given to the saints does not make them a saint - they are already ARE the good tree or they would not have the good fruit.
Just as we see in Job 1 and in Job 2.

======================================

Judgment is always case-by-case "individual" when it deals with the saints - anyone claiming to be one.

Individual Judgment in Dan 7:21-22 -- is at the time that judgment is passed in favor of the saints -- in Dan 7 - the pre-advent judgment "out of books of record" the record of what each individual did. PRIOR to the Dan 7:27 advent of Christ. Obviously

This is always the case for the saints (as scripture shows)

1. as we see in 2 Cor 5:10 EACH one judge based on "deeds done in the body whether good or bad".
2. As we see in Rom 2:4-16 failing cases compared to succeeding cases - according to deeds
   • "DOERS of the law will be justified" Rom 2:13
3. As we see in Matt 7 - "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord - but he who DOES"

There is no such thing as a factless judgment of saints "as a group" where nothing at all is review about any individual .

1. NO one is saved as a group because they are in a given denomination
2. NO one is saved as a group because they claim to be in the group called Christian
3. NO one is saved in a group fashion at all where nothing at all is to be considered about any individual!

A judged-as-a-group suggestion for Dan 7 saints -- would be total unscriptural nonsense.

No GROUP salvation, no GROUP judgment where no details about anyone is to be considered -- and we both know it.

What sort of judgment can there be with NO DETAILS?
"hmm I guess it is a good idea to HAVE saints!" what kind of judgment would THAT be??

So then AT Jesus' advent - the result of that judgment is revealed to man in that the saints are raptured (Rev 14:14-15, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:29-31

And unbelievers are all destroyed 2 Thess 1:5-8
Individuals are judged out of the record of what is in the BOOKS of Dan 7:9-10


BY FAITH - we are there --
And even today we argue "WE ARE seated with HIM in heavenly places"

Eph 2:
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,

Your suggestions do not pass the test of scripture - the details of Dan 7 and the basics of the Gospel such that judgment is always case by case and we ARE seated with Him in the heavenly places by faith .

 

[BobRyan]

Some will respond by ignoring all the texts listed in this thread above and just posting something like "so-and-so has some other view of it"
OR they will respond by ignoring all the texts listed in this thread above and just posting "your view agrees with so-and-so and I choose not to agree with so-and-so".

This is not a thread about what non-Bible source you should or should not agree with.

For the purposes of this thread - we are looking for sola-scriptura substantive comments opposed to the OP or in agreement with it. Both are fine.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible is a trusted source - we can all read it and in the case of this thread - we all agree that Dan 7 and Dan 8 and even Romans 2 are all included in the canon of scripture.

I see no reason to avoid the text of scripture.

 

[H&TR]

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment -

vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") --
vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)
See Job 1, and Job 2 for the interest/focus of heavenly courts on the saints vs the wicked..
vs 21, 22,25 Persecution of saints happens WHILE this courtroom judgment in Dan 7 takes place - and continues - until judgment completes.
vs 27 "Then comes the ADVENT" -- so all the above is "pre-Advent"

vs 9 begins after the rise and fall of the 4th empire in Dan 7 (Pagan Rome)
We see the investigative judgment in vs 9-10 (investigating out of the content of books of record) in this courtroom.

Dan 7:​

9 “I kept looking​

Until thrones were set up,​

And the Ancient of Days took His seat;​

His garment was white as snow,​

And the hair of His head like pure wool.​

His throne was ablaze with flames,​

Its wheels were a burning fire.​

10 A river of fire was flowing​

And coming out from before Him;​

Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,​

And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;​

The court convened,​

And the books were opened.​

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.​

Job 1 and Job 2 give us a clear view of how the court is very interested in those claimed to be saints - taking a lot of time to review the details - but is not very interested in the idea of proving that the wicked who oppress Job "are indeed wicked" ... since that part is obvious to all. In fact in Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned" so from the heavenly court POV the interesting part is that there is A SAINT. That claim is reviewed closely as we see in Job 1 and also in 2 Cor 5:10 "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (we -- means this includes the saints)

Rev 20 describes this concept of "judgment out of books of record" -- this way

Rev 20:21 "... and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

And so it is in the Dan 7 example of the same thing "the court sat, the books were opened... until judgment was passed in favor of the saints"

1. as we see in 2 Cor 5:10 EACH one judge based on "deeds done in the body whether good or bad".
2. As we see in Rom 2:4-16 failing cases compared to succeeding cases - according to deeds "DOERS of the law will be justified" Rom 2:13
3. As we see in Matt 7 - "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord - but he who DOES"

The idea of "judgment passed in favor of the saints ... out of the books of record" without a single detail about any saint being considered -- is total nonsense as the objective unbiased Bible student will note
.
================================================
Persecution of saints happens WHILE this courtroom judgment in Dan 7 takes place - and continues - until judgment completes.

23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.​

​

Then the kingdom of this world is turned over to Christ and saints. This is the Advent of Christ so all that came before is pre-advent

27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’​

Daniel is pretty clear on pre advent judgment!!

 

[BobRyan]

The Dan 7 -- court room event - is IN heaven.

Matt 6 "our Father IN HEAVEN hallowed be Thy name"...
Matt 10:33 33 But whoever denies Me before people, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Dan 7​

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.


13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
=====================

The Son of man comes to the Ancient of Days - already identified in vs 9
The Son of man comes with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days - the courtroom scene in heaven.

The wicked torment the wicked as Dan 7 says - for the entire time that the courtroom event in heaven is going on - UNTIL judgment is completed and its passed "in favor of the saints".

 

[BobRyan]

This thread has so many answers in it when it comes to my views on Dan 7 details - no wonder we have new Dan 7 threads starting while asking questions already answered in this thread.