Adventist end time beliefs?

Gary K · Mar 19, 2020

Dave L said:
People who are born again hate sin and love holiness. It is their nature not to sin. Law only forces the flesh to comply without a change of heart.

Where do you find this assertion of yours that I put in bold type in Scripture? I'd really like to see the texts that say this.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

What is written in the heart and placed in the mind in the new Covenant?

2Corinthians 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

What is written in the heart that was previously written on tables of stone?

1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Are you saying that you no longer sin? That all your thoughts and conduct are in harmony with the law of God?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So what is it that reminds us that we are sinful human beings? The law of God for it is the transgression of that law which is sin.

Dave L · Mar 19, 2020

Gary K said:
Where do you find this assertion of yours that I put in bold type in Scripture? I'd really like to see the texts that say this.

What is written in the heart and placed in the mind in the new Covenant?

What is written in the heart that was previously written on tables of stone?

Are you saying that you no longer sin? That all your thoughts and conduct are in harmony with the law of God?

So what is it that reminds us that we are sinful human beings? The law of God for it is the transgression of that law which is sin.

Here's a blanket answer to all your questions. Good people do not need the Ten Commandments. Abraham, Job, Abel, and others had the two great commandments written on their heart. As do all born again believers. They love God and others by nature.

But most of Israel was wicked unbelievers that God controlled under the Ten Commandments threat of death. Paul says;

“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:8–10 (KJV 1900)

In time, God removed the wicked unbelievers leaving only the believers in Israel. We do not need death threats or the Ten commandments being motivated by love. But we use them as commentary and for controlling our thoughts.

Dave L · Mar 19, 2020

Gary K said:
Where do you find that in Scripture? Jesus is the 10 commandments for He kept them perfectly and He is love. Love and God's law go hand in hand in Jesus. And Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

So, if we truly have Jesus in our lives we also have the law in our lives. You cannot separate Jesus from God's law.

“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:8–10 (KJV 1900)

Jesse Johnson · Mar 19, 2020

Pauline proof texts is all we'll get. Nearly every drop of the wine of the wrath of the harlot's fornication is wrested from the Scriptures upon his unwelcoming back. The warning of Peter goes completely unheeded. Those who wish to justify the faith of their fathers are especially susceptible to this. When I went searching for truth from the ministers in the church of my youth, nearly everything presented to answer my questions about obedience was robbed from the letters written by the Great Apostle. Only when specifically called for will the defenders of antinomianism produce anything else. And it is precisely because the rest of Scripture gives nowhere near a forceful defense of trampling God's law underfoot that this is so readily and naturally practiced.

Ask them where the destructive doctrines against which Peter warned are found in Christendom. They will point at each other if pressed, but you'll never see them point at a Seventh-day Adventist. And that is because we consult the entire testimony of Holy Writ for an answer for the hope that is in us. There is one individual on the forum who might as well take the username 2Cor 3. To him who hath an ear, let him hear. And where is a single communion who holds a systematic understanding of Daniel and Revelation? Don't bother to look, for there is none. All is confusion.

And it is not an Us vs. Them equation

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luke 15:4-6

Is this the parable of the man vs. the lost sheep?

God has left Himself seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

He knoweth His sheep and they hear His voice saying Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. They are of the wise virgins who have not yet awakened.

These are Adventist end-time beliefs.

Dave L · Mar 19, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
Pauline proof texts is all we'll get. Nearly every drop of the wine of the wrath of the harlot's fornication is wrested from the Scriptures upon his unwelcoming back. The warning of Peter goes completely unheeded. Those who wish to justify the faith of their fathers are especially susceptible to this. When I went searching for truth from the ministers in the church of my youth, nearly everything presented to answer my questions about obedience was robbed from the letters written by the Great Apostle. Only when specifically called for will the defenders of antinomianism produce anything else. And it is precisely because the rest of Scripture gives nowhere near a forceful defense of trampling God's law underfoot that this is so readily and naturally practiced.

Ask them where the destructive doctrines against which Peter warned are found in Christendom. They will point at each other if pressed, but you'll never see them point at a Seventh-day Adventist. And that is because we consult the entire testimony of Holy Writ for an answer for the hope that is in us. There is one individual on the forum who might as well take the username 2Cor 3. To him who hath an ear, let him hear. And where is a single communion who holds a systematic understanding of Daniel and Revelation? Don't bother to look, for there is none. All is confusion.

And it is not an Us vs. Them equation

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luke 15:4-6

Is this the parable of the man vs. the lost sheep?

God has left Himself seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

He knoweth His sheep and they hear His voice saying Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. They are of the wise virgins who have not yet awakened.

These are Adventist end-time beliefs.

Do you need to be told not to murder or steal?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 20, 2020

Dave L said:
Do you need to be told not to murder or steal?

No, I've been culturally conditioned not to.

Dave L · Mar 20, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
No, I've been culturally conditioned not to.

Then why the Law?

Gary K · Mar 20, 2020

Dave L said:
Here's a blanket answer to all your questions. Good people do not need the Ten Commandments. Abraham, Job, Abel, and others had the two great commandments written on their heart. As do all born again believers. They love God and others by nature.

But most of Israel was wicked unbelievers that God controlled under the Ten Commandments threat of death. Paul says;

“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:8–10 (KJV 1900)

In time, God removed the wicked unbelievers leaving only the believers in Israel. We do not need death threats or the Ten commandments being motivated by love. But we use them as commentary and for controlling our thoughts.

Ummm.... Good people?

Mark 10:17 ¶And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

I'd say Jesus flat out contradicts you. I'll believe Him rather than you.

As I remember the story of Abraham he was a liar, which is sin and breaks the law of God.

Genesis 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife.*n1
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.*n2
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

Notice that God said Abraham was both a prophet and a liar. But yet God said He would hear Abraham's prayer. Obviously Abraham had need of the law for he sinned even though he was a prophet according to God. Do you claim to be more righteous than Abraham?

John also contradicts you.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So, claiming to have no sin and thus no need of the law seems to be a real problem according to John. He says the truth is not in anyone who makes that claim.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Both Jews and Gentiles are under sin. All have sinned. The law justifies no one. All of us come short of the glory of God. Righteousness comes only of God. Do we make void the law? No. We establish the law.

That is Paul saying that through faith we establish the law, not do away with it or make it void. We, sinners that we are, establish the law of God through faith.

Like Paul, I need the law for I agree completely with Paul about what dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Do you have a carnal nature? I do. Does sin dwell within you as it did in Paul? It does in me. I have two natures. One is carnal. One is spiritual. And that means there is always conflict within me, according to Paul and myself, as to whether I will obey God or sin. Thus, I still need the law. I still need my guideposts to keep on pointing me to Jesus, of whence cometh my righteousness, for Jesus is the end--the object aimed at--of the law. The law points us to Jesus and I need that every day for along with Paul I have the need to "die daily".

Dave L · Mar 20, 2020

Gary K said:
Ummm.... Good people?

I'd say Jesus flat out contradicts you. I'll believe Him rather than you.

As I remember the story of Abraham he was a liar, which is sin and breaks the law of God.

Notice that God said Abraham was both a prophet and a liar. But yet God said He would hear Abraham's prayer. Obviously Abraham had need of the law for he sinned even though he was a prophet according to God. Do you claim to be more righteous than Abraham?

John also contradicts you.

So, claiming to have no sin and thus no need of the law seems to be a real problem according to John. He says the truth is not in anyone who makes that claim.

Both Jews and Gentiles are under sin. All have sinned. The law justifies no one. All of us come short of the glory of God. Righteousness comes only of God. Do we make void the law? No. We establish the law.

That is Paul saying that through faith we establish the law, not do away with it or make it void. We, sinners that we are, establish the law of God through faith.

Like Paul, I need the law for I agree completely with Paul about what dwelleth in me.

Do you have a carnal nature? I do. Does sin dwell within you as it did in Paul? It does in me. I have two natures. One is carnal. One is spiritual. And that means there is always conflict within me. according to Paul and myself, as to whether I will obey God or sin. Thus, I still need the law. I still need my guideposts to keep on pointing me to Jesus, of whence cometh my righteousness, for Jesus is the end--the object aimed at--of the law. The law points us to Jesus and I need that every day for along with Paul I have the need to "die daily".

Good people = born again people who cannot adopt a sinful lifestyle.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Jesse Johnson · Mar 20, 2020

Dave L said:
Then why the Law?

Because the cultural conditioning came from my elders' knowledge of the law. Are we really going to do this? Don't you know that there are people who live in a completely immoral state in remote areas? Are they devoid of this instinct of which you speak or are they simply sub-human? It always comes back around to Calvin, doesn't it? They're predestined to be wicked and lost, right?

Dave L · Mar 20, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
Because the cultural conditioning came from my elders' knowledge of the law. Are we really going to do this? Don't you know that there are people who live in a completely immoral state in remote areas? Are they devoid of this instinct of which you speak or are they simply sub-human? It always comes back around to Calvin, doesn't it? They're predestined to be wicked and lost, right?

Why do you need law if not prone to stealing?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 20, 2020

Dave L said:
Good people = born again people who cannot adopt a sinful lifestyle.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

But John doesn't say "adopt a sinful lifestyle," does he? Those are your words. You have to venture outside of the (KJV 1900) arena to get that interpretation.

Dave L · Mar 20, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
But John doesn't say "adopt a sinful lifestyle," does he? Those are your words. You have to venture outside of the (KJV 1900) arena to get that interpretation.

If you are saved, you won't live in sin. Only wicked evil doers needed the TCs in the OT.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 20, 2020

Dave L said:
Why do you need law if not prone to stealing?

You're being deliberately and disingenuously obtuse. Don't try to deny it like you have before. It's too obvious this time.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 20, 2020

Dave L said:
If you are saved, you won't live in sin. Only wicked evil doers needed the TCs in the OT.

The old Goebbels-esque "if you repeat it long enough and loud enough, eventually they'll believe it" game? Not interested in killing time. Bye now.

Dave L · Mar 20, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
You're being deliberately and disingenuously obtuse. Don't try to deny it like you have before. It's too obvious this time.

I was rotten to the core, still am but under house arrest by the Holy Spirit. I cannot habitually sin because I stop temptation before it turns into sin.

Gary K · Mar 20, 2020

Dave L said:
I was rotten to the core, still am but under house arrest by the Holy Spirit. I cannot habitually sin because I stop temptation before it turns into sin.

How do you know you don't sin anymore? How do you know what sin is. How do you recognize temptation?

Interesting that you take a glory to yourself that belongs only to God.

I cannot habitually sin because I stop temptation before it turns into sin.

What your words describe is pure self-righteousness.

Dave L · Mar 20, 2020

Gary K said:
How do you know you don't sin anymore? How do you know what sin is. How do you recognize temptation?

Interesting that you take a glory to yourself that belongs only to God. What your words describe is pure self-righteousness.

If Jesus lives in your heart, there's far more knowledge of sin than the TCs could ever provide. Don't steal = do nothing according to the TCs. According to Jesus, you are stealing if you don't give to someone who is your equal.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 20, 2020

The thread has now been hijacked by a Calvinistic agenda. Don't encourage it, folks.

Gary K · Mar 20, 2020

Dave L said:
If Jesus lives in your heart, there's far more knowledge of sin than the TCs could ever provide. Don't steal = do nothing according to the TCs. According to Jesus, you are stealing if you don't give to someone who is your equal.

Jesus is the law for He is God. It describes who He is as He lived it perfectly. He cannot be separated from His own law. Remember who Jesus says He is:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jesus is the law giver for He, as the great I AM, gave His law to the Israelites on mount Sinai. You cannot separate Jesus from His law.

So why do you take to yourself the glory that belongs only to God?

I cannot habitually sin because I stop temptation before it turns into sin.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is idolatry to take to yourself the credit that belongs only to God. It is a form of self-worship. And you claim to not need the 10 commandments because you don't habitually sin? You've been giving yourself the glory of not sinning and that glory, if it is true you don't sin, doesn't belong to you. You are stealing God's glory. So, you're not only worshiping another God other than our Creator you're stealing from Him.

Your own words betray you.

Adventist end time beliefs?

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