Adventist end time beliefs?

CharismaticLady · Mar 5, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
No informed Adventist believes that the mark of the beast has yet been administered. It must become compulsory by criminal law first.

True. I meant what Adventists believe it will be after the Antichrist has been revealed.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

The word "beast" in prophecy simply means "nation" or "kingdom." It cannot be denied, however, that the pope is at the head of the religio-political power, any more than could be said of Alexander The Great and the Grecian Empire. Nearly all of the great reformers held this historicist view of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. Luther declared that the pope, as an individual who was replaced with some frequency, did not so much qualify as antichrist as did the hierarchical system itself, which perpetuated the abuses against which he so thunderously railed.

Dan 7:17 KJV These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:23 KJV Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

It could well be argued that verse 17 here does point to a person, however, several of the ancient empires had more than one ruler owing to their longer durations of prominence. And then verse 23 follows up and almost seems to split the focus into a king/kingdom motif. So it seems that to hone in on one personality might be unwise. Notice if you will, that inspiration also here points out the unique destructive proclivity of this last of the four great empires contained in the prophecy. Such a juggernaut would have to be greater than the sum of its parts, and surely not attributable to the prowess of one man.

It should be noted that because of the nature of the fall of the Roman empire, the line between which paganism ends and the papacy begins can (naturally) appear quite blurry at times. Many scholars on both sides of the question have made the mistake of trying to pinpoint fine lines only to be proven misguided later on. This situation could well be considered to be illustrated by the mixture of clay and iron in the image of Daniel 2. It could also account for the term "mystery of iniquity" coined by the Great Apostle in 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

There is, however, an aspect related to this subject that God has been pleased to reveal to us. And that is the 1260-day prophecy of Daniel 7 and Revelation 12. This account of the transfer of power from pagan to papal auspices is actually based on legal terms, as is strongly implied in Revelation 13:2, instead of military actions, which is the method usually employed to defend its veracity.

I personally believe that most of the Christians in Heaven will quite likely have been Catholic in this life since most Christians are, and people are saved individually and not as a group.

In fact, I'll take that a step further. I highly suspect that most people who now call themselves Seventh-day Adventists will ultimately be lost for much the same reason. These are all things that nearly all Adventists know but are (understandably) reluctant to say. But since the end of all things is fast approaching, I say why beat around the bush?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
You are confusing Christ's Commandments with the defunct 10 Commandments.

To whom do the ten commandments belong, then?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
No body keeps the Sabbath today. If they did they would freeze to death on any Saturday at 20-. Plus they travel, and cook meals.....

So you think God was expecting us to still be rubbing two sticks together to make a fire today? Come on. Do conscientious Christians care how many people do something? How many people do you think hold to Calvin's view of election? Do you think I keep the Sabbath because the people I hang out with on Saturday like to do it too?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
You are not supposed to leave your house on the Sabbath.

“See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” Exodus 16:29 (KJV 1900)

That command was given related to the test of the manna. Not as a principle of Sabbath-keeping for all time.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 66:23

Won't these people have to come out of their houses to do that?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
You have fallen from grace according to Paul.

Yes, everything must be understood through the lens of Paul's writings, so the armchair Soteriologists tell me. It is where most folks run to support false doctrine. Peter understood this well, but we pay him no heed. I have actually had Christians tell me that Peter was merely expressing his own opinion when he wrote about this matter in his 2nd epistle. I prefer to strive to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, not just the ones that are agreeable to me. I am not obsessed with whether or not I am "saved." I think it is much too selfish a pursuit for a follower of Christ. I would rather seek to know Him Whom to know is life eternal. I would really like an abundant entrance into Heaven. I'd like to feel at home there rather than just be relieved that I "made it in."

Dave L · Mar 5, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
Yes, everything must be understood through the lens of Paul's writings, so the armchair Soteriologists tell me. It is where most folks run to support false doctrine. Peter understood this well, but we pay him no heed. I have actually had Christians tell me that Peter was merely expressing his own opinion when he wrote about this matter in his 2nd epistle. I prefer to strive to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, not just the ones that are agreeable to me. I am not obsessed with whether or not I am "saved." I think it is much too selfish a pursuit for a follower of Christ. I would rather seek to know Him Whom to know is life eternal. I would really like an abundant entrance into Heaven. I'd like to feel at home there rather than just be relieved that I "made it in."

If you do not know you are saved, then you are not. Because we are saved by faith = believing God saved us.

Dave L · Mar 5, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
That command was given related to the test of the manna. Not as a principle of Sabbath-keeping for all time.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 66:23

Won't these people have to come out of their houses to do that?

But Moses imported it and Circumcision into the Law. Both expired with the Law according to the NT.

Dave L · Mar 5, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
So you think God was expecting us to still be rubbing two sticks together to make a fire today? Come on. Do conscientious Christians care how many people do something? How many people do you think hold to Calvin's view of election? Do you think I keep the Sabbath because the people I hang out with on Saturday like to do it too?

If under the Sabbath, you play by those rules.

Dave L · Mar 5, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
To whom do the ten commandments belong, then?

They used to belong to unbelieving Israel.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
If you do not know you are saved, then you are not. Because we are saved by faith = believing God saved us.

Nice theoretical interpretation. Again, I'm still here.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
If under the Sabbath, you play by those rules.

Are we playing a game?

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Removed

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
But Moses imported it and Circumcision into the Law. Both expired with the Law according to the NT.

Imported. Really?

mmksparbud · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
But Moses imported it and Circumcision into the Law. Both expired with the Law according to the NT.

Circumcision has noithing to do with the 10 commandments.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
If under the Sabbath, you play by those rules.

How am I "under Sabbath" by partaking of its blessing every week? These are mostly rhetorical questions I'm asking, designed to provoke thought. It doesn't seem to be working. Hopefully someone will benefit.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
If you do not know you are saved, then you are not. Because we are saved by faith = believing God saved us.

It's good to hear from you that I am lost 30 years after my baptism and profession of faith in Jesus Christ. Thank you.

Jesse Johnson · Mar 5, 2020

Dave L said:
They used to belong to unbelieving Israel.

Gen 26:5 KJV Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Exo 16:4 KJV Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Exo 16:28 KJV And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
2Ki 17:13 KJV Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.
2Ki 21:8 KJV Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.
2Ch 6:16 KJV Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.
Psa 40:8 KJV I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa 78:1 KJV Maschil of Asaph. Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
Psa 89:30-32 KJV 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Psa 119:18-19 KJV 18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. 19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
Psa 119:21 KJV Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.
Psa 119:32-35 KJV 32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart. 33 HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. 34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. 35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
Psa 119:44-48 KJV 44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. 45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts. 46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed. 47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved. 48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.
Psa 119:53 KJV Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
Psa 119:55 KJV I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.
Psa 119:60-61 KJV 60 I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments. 61 The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.
(So this goes on for about another 100 verses or so).
Well, the Old Testament is just full of references to law and commandments being under the ownership of God. The idea that they belong to Israel is ill-conceived, at best.

Dave L · Mar 6, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
Gen 26:5 KJV Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Exo 16:4 KJV Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Exo 16:28 KJV And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
2Ki 17:13 KJV Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.
2Ki 21:8 KJV Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.
2Ch 6:16 KJV Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.
Psa 40:8 KJV I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa 78:1 KJV Maschil of Asaph. Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
Psa 89:30-32 KJV 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Psa 119:18-19 KJV 18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. 19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
Psa 119:21 KJV Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.
Psa 119:32-35 KJV 32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart. 33 HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. 34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. 35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
Psa 119:44-48 KJV 44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. 45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts. 46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed. 47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved. 48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.
Psa 119:53 KJV Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
Psa 119:55 KJV I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.
Psa 119:60-61 KJV 60 I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments. 61 The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.
(So this goes on for about another 100 verses or so).
Well, the Old Testament is just full of references to law and commandments being under the ownership of God. The idea that they belong to Israel is ill-conceived, at best.

Most of Israel was wicked beyond belief. That's why the Ten Commandments. Good people like Abraham didn't need this law or they would have had it.

“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:8–10 (KJV 1900)

Dave L · Mar 6, 2020

Jesse Johnson said:
It's good to hear from you that I am lost 30 years after my baptism and profession of faith in Jesus Christ. Thank you.

Saved people experience Christ in their hearts and know they are saved.

Adventist end time beliefs?

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