Adopted culture

[OnTheWay]

I'm just curious if any of my fellow American converts to Orthodoxy feel the same way I do in that I've found the Russian culture of my historically Russian parish as an adopted culture?

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

Well, I'm not American but I am a western convert. I have adopted a fair amount of Romanian culture, but I think this has less to do with my conversion, as I worshipped in a Greek church, than it has to do with the fact that I married a Romanian. I do feel much more comfortable with the Romanian parish I now attend, though, than I ever did with the Greek one. I'm just not sure if the reason is one of culture or language. I suspect the latter as neither one has the Liturgy in English.

James

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I attend an OCA parish with a mix of American converts and Russian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian, etc immigrants. So I'm definitely learning about that culture, but I can't say I'm really adopting it. Maybe I'm too old and set in my Texan ways.

 

[Oblio]

A few minor things. Nested dolls for our little Anna and the use of the Russian variations of her name.

 

[VickiY]

Definitely. I grew up in the GOA, and now attend a Ukrainian Orthodox Church (although my spiritual father is GOA). I am learning the language, and helping to make Ukrainian food for food sales, and have met a couple of Ukrainian friends who have introduced me to bandura music, and other Ukrainian music, and I have fallen in love with the culture (and think I amuse the Ukrainian ladies in my parish by bringing my Ukrainian music CDs to listen to as we pinch a couple thousand varenyky )

I think that, while this is certainly not required, it is a very nice thing to pick up aspects of the culture you are part of, as the church you go to is in some measure your family as well.

 

[Melethiel]

Definitely. I grew up in the GOA, and now attend a Ukrainian Orthodox Church (although my spiritual father is GOA). I am learning the language, and helping to make Ukrainian food for food sales, and have met a couple of Ukrainian friends who have introduced me to bandura music, and other Ukrainian music, and I have fallen in love with the culture (and think I amuse the Ukrainian ladies in my parish by bringing my Ukrainian music CDs to listen to as we pinch a couple thousand varenyky )

I think that, while this is certainly not required, it is a very nice thing to pick up aspects of the culture you are part of, as the church you go to is in some measure your family as well.

Bah....you're making me hungry...I want varenyky now.

 

[Khaleas]

Most definitely,

Although growing up in Finland a lot of traditions are Russian in origin and we make a lot of Russian food.
The priest I was talking to in Finland actually recommended that I'd look for a Russian heritage parish as he felt I'd feel much more at home there. On that point he was right.

 

[orthodoxy]

I'm just curious if any of my fellow American converts to Orthodoxy feel the same way I do in that I've found the Russian culture of my historically Russian parish as an adopted culture?

Yes, so much so our parish has adopted a parish in Russia helping to rebuild the Church that was leveled by the Communists. We also support Churches in the Serbian Region that have been dessimated by the ethnic strife in those nations. They have suffered honorably in the name of Jesus Christ and need our support.

I believe our survival as a united Church in America depends on the health of our "mother Churches" ie Russia, Greece, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Serbia, etc....

in Christ,

kyril

 

[Wiffey]

It is great to be exposed to new cultures. Especially if the parish is welcoming and warm. If I had a different personal experience, I'd probably love being immersed in another culture at church. But alas, not all parishes are like that...there is some xenophobia out there that can make fitting in a real chore for newcomers.

I go to a Greek parish and am married to a Greek-American. My in-laws are from small Greek villages and are OLD school. At first I tried to be as gung-ho as possible to prove that I could be a good wife and a good Orthodox Christian (especially since my in-laws were so adamantly against the idea of a non-Greek daughter-in-law that they refused to even meet me for a VERY long time- even after I had converted while attending a parish in another town so they would not have to acknowledge me at their church.)
So I was TOTALLY solicitous when they finally relented and agreed to meet me. I went to every church service, studied Greek every day...learned to speak, read and write it. I even deluded myself into thinking that I had proved myself and had finally been accepted. Come to find out that was not true...the first time I didn't fall into line, it was made abundantly clear that I was merely tolerated for my husband's sake. As a non-Greek, I could never be good enough.

Very freeing, that. I threw out my Greek book and no longer make any big effort to assimilate. What's the point? I'm not Greek, and apparently that makes me permanently inferior. Not that I'm bitter.

Participating in another culture at church is all well and good...as long as the level of ethnocentrism among the parishioners is not overwhelming. Nobody should not be made to feel that they are less-than because they are not (fill in the blank). Becoming Orthodox should not mean that there is an assumption that the convert must assimilate into a new ethnic culture.

Learning about different cultures is great. But when parishioners make the assumption that somehow ethnicity= Orthodoxy, then converts are out in the cold and will think that they are only acceptable when they don't express their own culture.

At some parishes there is a lot of pressure to subsume one's identity into the majority group. Ironically, that attitude has led me to really cool towards Greek culture because I feel so overwhelmed by the pressure to conform to its norms.

 

[OnTheWay]

Participating in another culture at church is all well and good...as long as the level of ethnocentrism among the parishioners is not overwhelming. Nobody should not be made to feel that they are less-than because they are not (fill in the blank). Becoming Orthodox should not mean that there is an assumption that the convert must assimilate into a new ethnic culture.

Learning about different cultures is great. But when parishioners make the assumption that somehow ethnicity= Orthodoxy, then converts are out in the cold and will think that they are only acceptable when they don't express their own culture.

At some parishes there is a lot of pressure to subsume one's identity into the majority group. Ironically, that attitude has led me to really cool towards Greek culture because I feel so overwhelmed by the pressure to conform to its norms.

I'm certainly not expressing the idea that the Greeks and Slavs are some sort of new chosen people, or that anyone should feel compelled to adapt culture. Orthodoxy is catholic and language or culture have nothing to do with it.

In my personal experience the Russian and Serbs have been very welcoming, my parish is about half Russian and Serb immigrents and about half western converts. I've always felt quite welcome and the many in the parish have opened their homes to me. I've found learning the language and culture to be only natural and fun.

On the other hand I could certainly see that some parishes that are very ethnic might not appear so open. Some might wonder what outsiders would even by interested in Orthodoxy for. As for others, I would imagine there are a good number of eastern European immigrents who are mainly economic immigrents and don't have any speical desire to live in the west. I could see how that might lead them to feel that Church is the last escape that is open to them for the near future of returning to the "old country."

 

[Theophorus]

I'm just curious if any of my fellow American converts to Orthodoxy feel the same way I do in that I've found the Russian culture of my historically Russian parish as an adopted culture?

Coming in through the Greek route, I have to say I have adopted virtually none of the culture. It just is not my upbringing. If truth was not important, I would be perfectly content as a high church anglican. Many sociological aspects of Greek culture escape me.

 

[nicodemus]

I've always been interested in the cultures of the world, but becoming Orthodox has heightened my interests in the various cultures of predominantly Orthodox countries. This is particularly true of Greece, eventhough I've always attended OCA parishes.

I wouldn't say I've "adopted" Greek culture, but I've become interested enough to want to learn the language (but that's primarily so I can read religious materials not available in English.) I am crazy for Greek food though.

 

[nicodemus]

I agree with a lot of wiffey says though too.

I married an Indian woman and her mother actually said to me at one point, "You're a nice enough fellow, but really, you should go and make some white girl happy insead! Indians and Americans don't belong together." Keep in mind my wife was raised in Georgia and Alabama!

 

[Kolya]

But alas, not all parishes are like that...there is some xenophobia out there that can make fitting in a real chore for newcomers.

I'm out of North America, but I am very happy in my Slavic Russian Orthodox Church. Everyone there has always been so supportive and openly friendly. I now find I love Russian Culture (And consume a wee too much "Little water" ) and I can't wait to visit the Motherland.

On the other hand, Wiffey is quite correct. I may be stepping on some toes here, but if the Russians had not come to our country I probably would never have found Orthodoxy nor become Orthodox.

On the few occasions we have attended the local Greek Church when our priest has been away, nobody has greeted us exept the Priest himself when we fetched the antidoro. The looks we got... I'd better not go there.
Any how: The Hellenic xenophobia is palpable, and it is not only that parish. In news letters from the Patriarch of Alexandria he makes it clear that they are here to carry the Hellenic Flag in this part of the world.

http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org/Articles/greeks_diaspora.htm

In the two years since His Beatitude took up the reins of the Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa, but also in His previous posts in various African countries, H.B. Petros VII has made an admirable contribution not only to Orthodoxy, but also to Hellenism abroad. From the outset, His Beatitude was a supporter of the World Council of Hellenes Abroad (SAE), of which He is still a member today. Speaking with the Macedonian Press Agency, H.B. Petros expressed His confidence in the ability of SAE to help Greeks abroad to remain united, both amongst themselves and with their homeland, Greece: "As a body, Greeks abroad can take an active part in solving problems at home. This is why we need SAE and should continue to provide our support."
H.B. Petros went on to comment that SAE, and generally Hellenism, gain from improved mutual understanding between Greeks abroad. This also helps Greece herself to see Hellenism abroad more clearly and to be more aware of areas in which the Greeks of the Diaspora can be helped, and how they in turn can help Greece:

And now about the new Patriarch:

http://www.greece.org/gopatalex/ThePatriarch.html

BIOGRAPHY ​

His Beatitude Theodoros II, Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa (born Nicholas Choreftakis) was born in Crete in 1954, where he completed his schooling. He is a graduate of the Rizarios Ecclesiastical School in Athens and holds a degree from the Theological Faculty of the Aristotelian University of Thessalonica. He also studied History of Art, Literature and Philosophy in Odessa. From 1975-1985 he served as Archdeacon and Chancellor of the Holy Metropolis of Lambis and Sfakion in Crete, where he developed significant Preaching and Philanthropic activities (hostels for needy youth, etc). From 1985-1990 he served as Patriarchal Exarch in Russia, based in Odessa during the tenure of Patriarchs Nicholas VI and Parthenios.

He established the Institution of Hellenic Culture and the Philiki Eterea Museum with 600 children, where they were taught a thorough knowledge of Greek. In 1990 he was ordained Bishop with the title of the formerly distinguished Diocese of Kyrene and was appointed as Representative of Patriarch Parthenios in Athens (1990-1997). He always accompanied Patriarch Parthenios on his travels throughout Africa and to many international, interfaith and Theological conferences. In 1997 he was appointed Patriarchal Vicar of Alexandria by Patriarch Petros VII of blessed Memory, in order to assist him at the outset of his Patriarchate and after 10 months he was elected as Metropolitan of Cameroon. He greatly developed Missionary activity there. He built churches, schools and hospitals, helping many Africans and Hellenes. In 2002 he was transferred to the Holy Metropolis of Zimbabwe, where he established 4 Missionary centres in Harare, a Hellenic Cultural Centre for 400 delegates, 2 large Missionary centres in Malawi, with a hospital, technical schools and nursery schools. Aided by the Greek Parliament he renovated the Hellenic Square (School-Church-Vicarage) in Beira, Mozambique. He founded churches and contributed to the establishment of the Hellenic Communities of Botswana and Angola.

On 9th October 2004 he was unanimously elected by the Synod of the Alexandrian Throne as Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa. The enthronement ceremony took place at the Cathedral of Annunciation in Alexandria, on Sunday October 24, 2004 in the presence of distinguished ecclesiastical & civilian representatives and great number of faithful. His general Missionary activity, as well as his affable character, are the reason behind the love felt towards him by all Africans, as well as by the communities of the Hellenes and Arabs of Egypt and All Africa.

Now do you see what I mean?

Kolya

 

[Prawnik]

Somehwat OT, but I am glad to see you back, Wiffey!

 

[OnTheWay]

While I agree the Greeks can get a bit too into their being Greek I also think it's unfair to single them out. The ideal that Orthodoxy and Russian nationalism go hand in hand isn't absent either.

The reasons for this probably stimming from the fact that for a very long time in Orthodox countries, and in a number of cases this continues to this day, Orthodoxy is the state religion. As such the state had an interested in promoting patriotism within the Church as well as outside of the Church.
I think the Greek Church has taken the position that one way to keep Greeks living abroad in the Church is to promote Hellenic culture and prevent the Greek population from fusing with the non-Greek host population.

 

[prodromos]

So I was TOTALLY solicitous when they finally relented and agreed to meet me. I went to every church service, studied Greek every day...learned to speak, read and write it. I even deluded myself into thinking that I had proved myself and had finally been accepted. Come to find out that was not true...the first time I didn't fall into line, it was made abundantly clear that I was merely tolerated for my husband's sake. As a non-Greek, I could never be good enough.

That was just their excuse . For some Greek parents, no woman is good enough for their son, not even Greeks (I have met a number of women who have suffered this attitude from their mothers-inlaw. And they were lovely women too).

John

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

That was just their excuse . For some Greek parents, no woman is good enough for their son, not even Greeks (I have met a number of women who have suffered this attitude from their mothers-inlaw. And they were lovely women too).

John

That's not just confined to Greeks either, or even the Orthodox for that matter. My wife's mother was never good enough for her mother-in-law despite their both being Romanian and Orthodox (though, interestingly the father-in-law was Russian!) My mother is a German Lutheran. Neither my wife (Romanian Orthodox) nor my brother's fiancee (English Protestant) are, or will ever be, good enough for us as far as my mother is concerned. I doubt anyone else would have measured up in her eyes either. I think this phenomenon is common and speaks more of the attitudes of some mothers towards their sons than it does of the culture they were brought up in.

James

 

[ByzantineDixie]

While I am very willing and extremely interested to learn other cultures...I am completely uninterested...no, perhaps I should state that more strongly...I am completely resistant to taking on or adopting another culture for the sake of this move to Orthodoxy. Already my husband can't separate the concept of being Orthodox and being Greek. He can't for the life of him understand why the first US born child of a German woman would want to be Greek.

Well, I don't. I only want to be an Orthodox Christian. Greek is the flavor I have available in our town...so I go to the Greek church. But...I am not Greek and I have no plans to become Greek. Maybe it's an age thing like Mary of Bethany said and if I were younger I would find the cultural variations enchanting...then again maybe it's the result of working for a global company and interacting with multiple cultures on a regular basis...perhaps my constant exposure to the various cultures has innoculated me and kept me happy with my own.

Nonetheless, with all that said...if it suits you...adopt it!!! Have fun with it. Consider it a bonus for becoming Orthodox! ('Cause I plan on getting a set of nested dolls, too! :o )

 

[nicodemus]

I still wish all the churches in the US would drop the "Greek" "Russian" "Antiochian" or whatever off of the signs, or at least out of the name of the church.

I'd like to see HOLY TRINITY ORTHODOX CHURCH instead of HOLY TRINITY GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH.

Or, if they wanted to do something like this, I'd be fine with that:

HOLY TRINITY ORTHODOX CHURCH
A parish of the Greek Orthodox Diocese of North America

When I was converting I was defiantly anti-ethnic Orthodoxy, not because I had anything against Russians and Ukranians or Greeks or etc., but because I had to assert to myself and to my family that Orthodoxy was also for Alabamians whose ancestors lived in the area before it gained statehood!