ADL Report on extremist violence

JosephZ said:

Do you not find these threats comparable to ISIS?

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The people who deal with these threats professionally don't.

Surely you don't imagine yourself better informed than them.

By whom?

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Whomever you got these ideas from.

JosephZ said:

I took the time to read each of the testimonies that were presented in that hearing you linked to. There was no mention of domestic right-wing, left-wing, or other type of domestic terrorism.

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Well a lot of what gets labeled terrorism by the media doesn't meet the legal definition.

Once again, all of what was discussed in that hearing focused on foreign threats. Homegrown Violent Extremists are not the same as domestic terrorists.

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Untrue.

Quote the section that explains they're only discussing foreign threats...or stop spreading falsehoods.

If they were talking about all threats, they would have mentioned right-wing terrorism

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.

Not if they don't consider it a threat. Seeing how the ADL had to stretch to get 50 deaths...I don't blame them.

Unfortunately the current administration, and especially Mike Pompeo who has an anti-islamic bias, focus too much on the Islamic threat and ignore the right-wing threat.

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He's an expert...with access to all available information. Who are you or anyone else to say he's got it wrong?

White supremacists and other far-right extremists have killed far more people since Sept. 11, 2001, than any other category of domestic extremist.

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Except they haven't.

Part of the problem is that groups like ADL and others have compiled these lists that are mainly bogus.

They take any murder...say a white supremacist kills his ex girlfriend...and add it to the list of "murders by right wing extremists".

The problem is that he didn't murder his girlfriend because he's a right wing extremist...he murdered her because she broke up with him. So does the FBI care? No. No amount of fighting "right wing extremism" would've stopped it.

U.S. Law Enforcement Failed to See the Threat of White Nationalism. Now They Don’t Know How to Stop It.

To say that right-wing extremism isn't equally as much of a threat to Americans as Islamic extremism ignores the facts.

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Well now we know who is lying to you.

Ana the Ist said:

The people who deal with these threats professionally don't.

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I was asking if you felt those threats were comparable.

Ana the Ist said:

Whomever you got these ideas from.

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Part of our ministry here in Mindanao is countering violent extremism since the youth in the communities we work in are often the targets of recruiters for terrorist organizations. I often take classes and attend forums related to violent extremism and terrorism in order to keep up to date on the latest trends. My knowledge on this subject doesn't come from the media, politicians, or partisan heads of government agencies, it comes from experts in the field and studying the data for myself. Below are courses I have taken from sources within the past couple of years which focused heavily on threats in the US.

Ana the Ist said:

Not if they don't consider it a threat. Seeing how the ADL had to stretch to get 50 deaths

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Those deaths were for a single year, 2018. There were no deaths from Islamic extremists last year.

Ana the Ist said:

He's an expert...with access to all available information.

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He was an attorney and a congressman prior to be appointed to the CIA and he was with the CIA for only 15 months.

Ana the Ist said:

Except they haven't.

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Actually they have, Twice as many people have been killed by right-wing extremists than Islamic extremists in the US since 9/11.

For example, the third murder listed by the ADL filed under right wing extremists is this one (yes I looked at the report)...

Tacoma man charged in ‘chillingly cold-blooded’ slaying of a stranger in order to steal his home

This man was undeniably a white supremacist....but he killed someone for their property. Would fighting against right wing extremism have helped in this case? No. Did this man get killed because of right wing extremism? No...not even close.

That's why lists like this are bogus.

JosephZ said:

Those deaths were for a single year, 2018. There were no deaths from Islamic extremists last year.

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And?

He was an attorney and a congressman prior to be appointed to the CIA and he was with the CIA for only 15 months.

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Good...he's about a thousand times more qualified than you to speak on the topic.

Actually they have, Twice as many people have been killed by right-wing extremists than Islamic extremists in the US since 9/11.

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Were they killed because of right wing extremism though?

Because if they weren't, what good will it do to fight against right wing extremism?

JosephZ said:

I was asking if you felt those threats were comparable.

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No....Islamic extremists are a much bigger threat. I've gone through lists like this one....murder by murder....and most of the victims of those "right wing extremists" were killed for reasons that had nothing to do with extremism. They were killed for reasons like financial gain, personal romantic relationships, drunken or drug induced fights, and even the occasional prison fight.

If we kept the list to people killed for right wing extremist reasons....that is, those killed because of a political or racial agenda, we wouldn't have a number worth reporting. It wouldn't add up to half the number of people killed for Islamic extremist reasons.

That's why lists like this are deceptive and misleading. You read that all these people were killed by right wing extremists....and you think they were killed because the person is fascist or racist...but they weren't.

Here's another perfect example from ADL's list...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.caller.com/amp/872265002

This guy apparently killed most of his family before killing himself. You'll notice no real references to right wing extremism in the article....but ADL found he had some connections to white supremacists in prison....so he's on the list.

Realistically, since this was an unusually busy year for right wing extremists, you might have as many as 20 people actually killed because of right wing extremism. Most years, we're talking about a number that's between 0 and 10.

It's dishonest....and frankly I'd be a little embarrassed if I bought into this.

View attachment 250428

Ana the Ist said:

Were they killed because of right wing extremism though?

Because if they weren't, what good will it do to fight against right wing extremism?

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Here's a tool you can use to help you answer those questions.


Profiles of Individual Radicalization in the United States - PIRUS (Keshif) | START.umd.edu

Ana the Ist said:

If we kept the list to people killed for right wing extremist reasons....that is, those killed because of a political or racial agenda, we wouldn't have a number worth reporting. It wouldn't add up to half the number of people killed for Islamic extremist reasons.

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This is not true.

Here's a partial sample of the list from early 2018....

Camden, Michigan, June 30, 2018. Anti-government extremist Joshua Daniel Miller was arrested for the shooting
death of Eddie Coleman Heathcoe. Miller allegedly got into an argument with his ex-wife at the home she shared
with Heathcoe. Miller was involved with militia and Three Percenter groups.20
• Dothan, Alabama, June 4, 2018. James Mathis, a member of the Georgia-based white supremacist prison gang
Ghostface Gangsters, and his wife, Amanda Oakes, allegedly killed their six-month-old son and put his body in a
freezer in a hotel room. The couple fled to Florida where they were arrested following a carjacking attempt.21
• Athens, Georgia, May 11, 2018. Following a family argument, Malachi Qaadir Dorns, 19, stabbed his mother and
older brother multiple times, wounding his mother and killing his brother. In an earlier arrest, Dornss told police that
he was a sovereign citizen.22
• Abingdon, Virginia, May 4, 2018. Roger Melvin Tackett was charged with first degree murder and other crimes
after fatally shooting an acquaintance following a dispute. According to police, Tackett has multiple white
supremacist tattoos.23
• Nashville, Tennessee, April 22, 2018. Travis Reinking opened fire inside a Waffle House, killing four people
and wounding or injuring four more. Reports from co-workers and police officers who had previously known or
encountered Reinking stated that he was a sovereign citizen. However, Reinking also has a serious history of
mental illness and the shooting appears to have been non-ideological in nature; he has been ruled incompetent
to stand trial.24
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee, March 17, 2018. White supremacist John Daniel Carothers was charged with first degree
murder, eight counts of reckless endangerment and one count of aggravated arson after he allegedly deliberately
set fire to his African-American roommate at a Veteran Affairs home. Carothers allegedly confessed to the crime in
a letter to a white supremacist group.25
• Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, March 12, 2018. Corey Johnson, 17, killed a 13-year-old and severely injured two
others in a stabbing spree during a sleepover. One victim was stabbed 32 times but survived. Johnson was charged
as an adult with first-degree murder and attempted first-degree murder. He had a long history of violent tendencies
and extremist beliefs, including an interest in white supremacy. However, in the year before the attack he had
become interested in radical Islam (and had even been reported to the FBI by local law enforcement). After his
arrest, Johnson reportedly told investigators he had stabbed his victims “because of his Muslim faith.”26
• Locust Grove, Georgia, February 19, 2018. Tierre Guthrie, a Moorish sovereign citizen, shot and killed a Locust
Grove police officer when the officer and two Henry County sheriff’s deputies tried to take Guthrie into custody for a
failure to appear warrant. Both deputies were wounded but survived. Guthrie, who was himself shot four times in the
firefight, died at the scene.27

Out of this partial list...I counted literally 3 murders which should be on the list. 1 committed by a kid who sounds like he has mental problems, but identifies as a Muslim.

Now, I understand some might consider the shooting spree by the sovereign citizen legitimate...but if he was too incompetent to stand trial, it's difficult for me to consider him legitimately killing people for political reasons.

JosephZ said:

This is not true.

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It is though...I just posted a partial list by ADL that covers almost half of 2018.

How many of those murders would you say happened "because of right wing extremism"? We have a couple who killed their kid on the list. We have guys on the list because they have "tattoos".

Try looking at the facts for once.

JosephZ said:

View attachment 250428

Here's a tool you can use to help you answer those questions.

View attachment 250431
Profiles of Individual Radicalization in the United States - PIRUS (Keshif) | START.umd.edu


This is not true.

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Do you think every murder listed by the ADL belongs on there? Or do you think they're trying to make right wing extremists out to be more dangerous than they are?

Ana the Ist said:

How many of those murders would you say happened "because of right wing extremism"?

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The report said 19, so I will go with that number.

Ana the Ist said:

Try looking at the facts for once.

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I do look at the facts. I have to say though that your denial of the threat that right-wing extremism poses to the American public is concerning. There have been several plots by right-wing extremists discovered, some within the past few months, where weapons of mass destruction were to be used and/or the intent to cause mass casualties was the intent. It's just a matter of time before another attack like the Oklahoma City bombing or something even worse takes place. It seems you don't realize just how serious this issue of right-wing extremism is in the United States.

Ana the Ist said:

Do you think every murder listed by the ADL belongs on there? Or do you think they're trying to make right wing extremists out to be more dangerous than they are?

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The report was pretty straight forward and even states that many of the murders listed were not primarily driven by ideological motives. There was nothing at all misleading about it.

JosephZ said:

The report said 19, so I will go with that number..

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Ok. Here's the first one on the partial list I gave right off of ADL's report.

Suspect in Hillsdale County homicide died of self-inflicted gunshot wound

Police seem to think it was a fight that was over a woman, but I'll let you explain why right wing extremism is at fault.

I'll wait.

JosephZ said:

The report was pretty straight forward and even states that many of the murders listed were not primarily driven by ideological motives. There was nothing at all misleading about it.

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Wait wait wait....if they aren't motivated by ideology....why are we comparing them to Muslim extremists? Why are you blaming right wing extremism if most of them aren't motivated by right wing extremism????

That's extremely misleading. You know the average person is just going to glance at that article and think that right wing extremism is more dangerous than Islamic extremism.

Ana the Ist said:

Ok. Here's the first one on the partial list I gave right off of ADL's report.

Suspect in Hillsdale County homicide died of self-inflicted gunshot wound

Police seem to think it was a fight that was over a woman, but I'll let you explain why right wing extremism is at fault.

I'll wait.

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That would be one of the 30 or so murders that weren't primarily driven by ideological motives. Did you even read the report in it's entirety?

JosephZ said:

That would be one of the 30 or so murders that weren't primarily driven by ideological motives. Did you even read the report in it's entirety?

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Lol I did....why are they lumping them in with right wing extremism then?

What's the point of that?

Ana the Ist said:

Wait wait wait....if they aren't motivated by ideology....why are we comparing them to Muslim extremists? Why are you blaming right wing extremism if most of them aren't motivated by right wing extremism????

That's extremely misleading. You know the average person is just going to glance at that article and think that right wing extremism is more dangerous than Islamic extremism.

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The average person would probably take the time to read the whole report and then come to the realization that right-wing extremism is a problem in the US.

A right-wing extremist and and Islamic extremist are equally as dangerous. One is not more dangerous than the other.

Ana the Ist said:

Lol I did....why are they lumping them in with right wing extremism then?

What's the point of that?

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You really didn't take the time to read the report did you?

From the report:

Some might wonder why the COE tracks both ideological and non-ideological killings by extremists, instead of just ideological killings. One important reason has been described above—it is often difficult to know for sure if ideology played a role, significant or otherwise, in a murder or series of murders.

Moreover, discounting non-ideological murders would provide a distorted idea of the nature of and dangers posed by extremist movements. Extreme causes often attract adherents with violent tendencies—tendencies that are reflected not only in the violence that adherents commit for their cause, but also the violence they commit against others—including rivals, spouses, children and acquaintances.

White supremacists in the United States regularly commit murders in support of their hateful cause, but their violence—and thus the danger they pose to the country as a whole—extends far beyond that. To ignore non-ideological killings would be to discount a significant aspect of many of these extremist movements. Adherents of all terrorist and violent extremist movements, from Islamist extremists to narco-terrorists to anti-government militia groups, engage in both ideological and non-ideological criminal activity and violence. It is an inherent and integral part of the dangers they pose to society.

Consequently, the COE tracks all killings connected to domestic extremists, whether an ideological motive is clearly evident or not, but does distinguish those killings for which a primary or secondary ideological motivation seems likely.
Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2018