Adam and Evolution: A Reconciliation

Job 33:6 · Jul 5, 2017

And let me add that, just as much as you think the theory of evolution is an assault on God, many would turn that around and would say that harsh literal interpretations of scripture are an attack on God just the same.

4x4toy · Jul 5, 2017

KomatiiteBIF said:
'Yup, and you play God marking red ink over anything that doesnt match your personal interpretation of the word.

Interpretation ? Take a number and get in line Bro .. I have some groups telling me Jesus is not God in the flesh, some that the authority of God lives and dictates from Rome, some that Jesus is really the arch-angel Michael, some that there is no after life , some that this guru or that is the new Jesus , some that he never resurrected from the dead, some that Adam and Eve had a mother and father that originated from a random chance of chemicals and who knows what else billions of years ago once upon a time, some that miracles have been done away with and no longer occur , Yet Jesus and his Word remains the same . All of it !!! Hebrews 13:8 ..

Job 33:6 · Jul 5, 2017

4x4toy said:
Interpretation ? Take a number and get in line Bro .. I have some groups telling me Jesus is not God in the flesh, some that the authority of God lives and dictates from Rome, some that Jesus is really the arch-angel Michael, some that there is no after life , some that this guru or that is the new Jesus , some that he never resurrected from the dead, some that Adam and Eve had a mother and father that originated from a random chance of chemicals and who knows what else billions of years ago once upon a time, some that miracles have been done away with and no longer occur , Yet Jesus and his Word remains the same . All of it !!! Hebrews 13:8 ..

The Lords Word does remain the same, and Amen to that. One thing that also remains the same is mankinds flawed nature, which includes our inability to properly interpret that Word. And all of us are subject to this same sinful nature and flawed capabilities.

4x4toy · Jul 5, 2017

KomatiiteBIF said:
The Lords Word does remain the same, and Amen to that. One thing that also remains the same is mankinds flawed nature, which includes our inability to properly interpret that Word. And all of us are subject to this same sinful nature and flawed capabilities.

I may be flawed but I'm not confused on the most dependable gift ever given us by God ..
Does Jesus trace his genealogy back to Adam and Eve ? Does he believe it ? Do you ?

EpiscipalMe · Jul 5, 2017

AlexDTX said:
And you, a professing Christian, ignored the main point that I addressed. Without a created Adam, their would be no sin for Christ to die for. This is the assault on God that the theory of evolution attacks. The issue is not science, the issue is the secular humanist theory of evolution. You are the one ignoring God.

Isa 66:2 For all these things hath My hand made, and so all these things came to be, saith the LORD; but on this man will I look, even on him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at My word.

Of course there can be sin without a literal interpretation of Genesis. Sin is a turning away from God - people do not need Adam and Eve's example to do that.

The 12th century Jewish scholar Maimonides recognized that Genesis did not need to be taken literally for its teachings to be true:
"Maimonides applied this principle to theories about creation. He held that if the eternity of the universe (what we would call the Steady State theory) could be proven by logic (science) then the biblical passages speaking about creation at a point in time could and should be interpreted figuratively in a way that is compatible with the eternity of the universe."
Genesis As Allegory | My Jewish Learning

KWCrazy · Jul 5, 2017

KomatiiteBIF said:
Archaeology regularly involves work related to artifacts that are older than 6000 years.

More properly stated, "Archaeology regularly involves work related to artifacts that are dated by some to be older than 6000 years." Things we find are not date stamped. determining their age can be subjective.

Same deal with cosmology, modern cosmology, biology and geology have independent lines of evidence for an old earth and universe,

Here's the problem with that.
1. Nothing in the universe is infinite, which means everything has a date of origination and will in time be rendered useless.
2. There is no scientifically valid explanation for the origination of anything. The creation by a God is, then, as scientific as any other theory. Origination is contrary to natural law which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form.
3. If God created a planet for the immediate inhabitation of man, he would have created a mature planet with the plants, animals and minerals man needs to survive. That is what Genesis 1 details.

Christians who reject the Bible are embarrassing. At least atheists are logically consistent. They don't pick and chose what portions of the Bible they choose to believe, they reject it all.

EpiscipalMe · Jul 5, 2017

KWCrazy said:
More properly stated, "Archaeology regularly involves work related to artifacts that are dated by some to be older than 6000 years." Things we find are not date stamped. determining their age can be subjective.

Here's the problem with that.
1. Nothing in the universe is infinite, which means everything has a date of origination and will in time be rendered useless.
2. There is no scientifically valid explanation for the origination of anything. The creation by a God is, then, as scientific as any other theory. Origination is contrary to natural law which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form.
3. If God created a planet for the immediate inhabitation of man, he would have created a mature planet with the plants, animals and minerals man needs to survive. That is what Genesis 1 details.

Christians who reject the Bible are embarrassing. At least atheists are logically consistent. They don't pick and chose what portions of the Bible they choose to believe, they reject it all.

Who is rejecting the Bible? I reject a literal interpretation. I believe that the Biblical lessons are truth.

What I do not reject are creationists. I do not question your faith or your place in heaven simply because we disagree on interpretation of scripture. We all believe that God created the universe and sent His Son Jesus Christ for our salvation. We are all Christians.

Job 33:6 · Jul 5, 2017

I think, another difficulty comes in that understanding scripture often is taken by many to be a simple thing. In scripture we have no more than two or three? straight forward sentences about the creation of Adam and Eve. So, it doesn't take a PHD who spent their entire life studying to read those one or two sentences and to say, look, here it clearly says Eve was made from the rib of Adam.

Whereas, something like the big bang is engulfed in physics based calculus and many aren't able to examine Gods creation from that physics based perspective. And so you get one side of the discussion that may not get a fair trial, as it is not understood by the church.

KWCrazy · Jul 5, 2017

EpiscipalMe said:
The 12th century Jewish scholar Maimonides recognized that Genesis did not need to be taken literally for its teachings to be true:

While I can appreciate the sincerity of Jewish scholars, Judaism does not recognize that Christ was the Messiah and the son of God. Why, then, would I take their word over Christian scholars?

EpiscipalMe · Jul 5, 2017

KWCrazy said:
While I can appreciate the sincerity of Jewish scholars, Judaism does not recognize that Christ was the Messiah and the son of God. Why, then, would I take their word over Christian scholars?

Because we are discussing Genesis, the first book of the Bible, but also the first book of the Torah. A fundamentally Jewish text that was studied and preached about by Jesus, himself a Jew.

KWCrazy · Jul 5, 2017

EpiscipalMe said:
Who is rejecting the Bible? I reject a literal interpretation.

Pressed for passages of Scripture to support your belief, you have nothing. I have an almost unanimous admission of theistic evolutionists that Jesus would be classified as a Young Earth Creationist. If I share the same interpretation as Christ and you do not, which of is is reading our own thoughts into the Word? Christ was a creationist. Do you reject Him as well? How do you reject creationists without rejecting the Prince of all creationists? Jesus taught that every word of the Scripture was true, you say it is not. Whom shall I believe?

Job 33:6 · Jul 5, 2017

KWCrazy said:
More properly stated, "Archaeology regularly involves work related to artifacts that are dated by some to be older than 6000 years." Things we find are not date stamped. determining their age can be subjective.

Here's the problem with that.
1. Nothing in the universe is infinite, which means everything has a date of origination and will in time be rendered useless.
2. There is no scientifically valid explanation for the origination of anything. The creation by a God is, then, as scientific as any other theory. Origination is contrary to natural law which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form.
3. If God created a planet for the immediate inhabitation of man, he would have created a mature planet with the plants, animals and minerals man needs to survive. That is what Genesis 1 details.

Christians who reject the Bible are embarrassing. At least atheists are logically consistent. They don't pick and chose what portions of the Bible they choose to believe, they reject it all.

In my opinion, my/our science, is more objective than the interpretations of scripture that opposes my/our science.

AlexDTX · Jul 5, 2017

EpiscipalMe said:
Of course there can be sin without a literal interpretation of Genesis. Sin is a turning away from God - people do not need Adam and Eve's example to do that.

Do you understand the Gospel? Jesus did not die for the sins we commit, he died for the sin that we are. Through his death and resurrection he had created a new humanity. One that partakes of the divine nature through the new birth. It is not Adam and Eve's example that Christ died for. It is for Adam. We are all Adam before the new birth, but after receiving the Holy Spirit in the new birth, we are all the beginning of the new humanity which is Christ.

EpiscipalMe · Jul 5, 2017

KWCrazy said:
Pressed for passages of Scripture to support your belief, you have nothing. I have an almost unanimous admission of theistic evolutionists that Jesus would be classified as a Young Earth Creationist. If I share the same interpretation as Christ and you do not, which of is is reading our own thoughts into the Word? Christ was a creationist. Do you reject Him as well? How do you reject creationists without rejecting the Prince of all creationists? Jesus taught that every word of the Scripture was true, you say it is not. Whom shall I believe?

You can believe who you want. I believe the lessons taught by the Bible, same as you. The details are not what is important - the lessons are. We have no idea if Christ was a YEC. People in his society certainly were since they did not have the benefit of modern science.

In no way do I reject Jesus. A fact I have stated numerous times.

And, how about Karl Barth as a Christian scholar:
"The creation story deals only with the becoming of all things, and therefore with the revelation of God, which is inaccessible to science as such. The theory of evolution deals with what has become, as it appears to human observation and research and as it invites human interpretation. Thus one’s attitude to the creation story and the theory of evolution can take the form of an either/or only if one shuts oneself off completely from faith in God’s revelation or from the mind (or opportunity) for scientific understanding."
Faith and Theology: Creation and evolution: a letter from Karl Barth

4x4toy · Jul 5, 2017

KomatiiteBIF said:
I think, another difficulty comes in that understanding scripture often is taken by many to be a simple thing. In scripture we have no more than two or three? straight forward sentences about the creation of Adam and Eve. So, it doesn't take a PHD who spent their entire life studying to read those one or two sentences and to say, look, here it clearly says Eve was made from the rib of Adam.

Whereas, something like the big bang is engulfed in physics based calculus and many aren't able to examine Gods creation from that physics based perspective. And so you get one side of the discussion that may not get a fair trial, as it is not understood by the church.

What are the physics in changing water to wine at a word ?

EpiscipalMe · Jul 5, 2017

AlexDTX said:
Do you understand the Gospel? Jesus did not die for the sins we commit, he died for the sin that we are. Through his death and resurrection he had created a new humanity. One that partakes of the divine nature through the new birth. It is not Adam and Eve's example that Christ died for. It is for Adam. We are all Adam before the new birth, but after receiving the Holy Spirit in the new birth, we are all the beginning of the new humanity which is Christ.

Romans 8:3-6
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin,d he condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.b ⁵ For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spiritb set their minds on the things of the Spirit.b ⁶ To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

Our sinful nature is a result of our humanity, with or without Adam as a literal progenitor.

Job 33:6 · Jul 5, 2017

4x4toy said:
What are the physics in changing water to wine at a word ?

Irrelevant to the discussion. I could ask you if youre familiar with angular unconformities that are offset within the Appalachian mountains.

God is clear in how He created a world with an ancient and rich past, far older than 6000 years.

JacksBratt · Jul 5, 2017

EpiscipalMe said:
I don't believe He was hiding anything. Genesis was written for a primitive people without scientific understanding. In my opinion, it was written to teach a lesson (God created the universe, departure from God's laws is sin with consequences) and accomplishes just that.

LOL this kills me. "Genesis was written for a primitive people without scientific understanding."

That statement is an all out bald faced lie that is perpetrated to convince you to believe exactly what your are trying to state here.

They may not of had cell phones, airplanes and atomic submarines but they had the same intelligence as we do today. They accomplished more with less than we have today.

Just google the Antikythera Mechanism, 2000 year old batteries, Caves near Mount Baigong in China contain pipes leading to a nearby lake. They were dated by the Beijing Institute of Geology to about 150,000 years ago, A drill bit had been found encapsulated in coal about 22 inches thick, buried in a bed of clay mixed with boulders about 7 feet thick, spheres with fine grooves around them found in mines in South Africa have been said by some to be naturally formed masses of mineral matter. Others have said they were precisely shaped by a prehistoric human hand.

“The globes, which have a fibrous structure on the inside with a shell around it, are very hard and cannot be scratched, even by steel,” said Roelf Marx, curator of the museum of Klerksdorp, South Africa, according to Michael Cremo’s book “Forbidden Archaeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race.” Marx said the spheres are about 2.8 billion years old.

The Iron Pillar of Delhi.

A hammer was found in London, Texas, in 1934 encased in stone that had formed around it. The rock surrounding the hammer is said to be more than 100 million years old. The metal the hammer is made of is of unknown source.

A 500,000-Year-Old Spark Plug.

Not to mention the pyramids, and the too numerous to mention megaliths around the globe. Many of which are perfectly aligned with, not only each other but astrological charts.

Also, in Peru there are super hard rocks with perfectly round holes drilled through them with and others machined into shapes with right angles that are so straight and sharp that you can still cut yourself on them today..........and..........they fit together like legos...

Ya..... how arrogant of us to say that we are so much smarter..... duh.... Moses, who wrote most of the first 5 books of the bible had the best education of the Egyptian people. As did Jacob...

So, nope.... not buying the whole goat herder mentality hoax.....

4x4toy · Jul 5, 2017

EpiscipalMe said:
Romans 8:3-6
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin,d he condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.b ⁵ For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spiritb set their minds on the things of the Spirit.b ⁶ To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

Our sinful nature is a result of our humanity, with or without Adam as a literal progenitor.

And sin is mans substitute for loss of relationship with our creator began and passed through Adam to us all , we must perform it to fulfill the void of Gods presence, it is as natural law as is gravity . Looking for loopholes or justification outside Gods Word is at the core of sin .

AlexDTX · Jul 5, 2017

EpiscipalMe said:
Our sinful nature is a result of our humanity, with or without Adam as a literal progenitor.

Read more of the Bible.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:15 ... For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Adam as a created man by God, not evolved, became a sinner with a fallen nature called the sin nature. Jesus came as a man birthed into creation without sin, taking on our sin nature: (he who knew no sin became sin that we might become the righteousness of God - 2 Cor. 5:21) so we can be partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). Evolution is a direct attack on the Gospel.

Adam and Evolution: A Reconciliation

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