Adam and Eve... perfect?

Child-of-Zion · Nov 11, 2008

Belief #1
Adam and Eve were created perfect.

Belief #2
Adam and Eve were not created perfect.

Issue with #1: If Adam and Eve were created to be perfect then wouldn't they have always made the perfect choice with their freedom of will? In other words, if they were perfect then wouldn't they have remained sinless?

Issue with #2: If Adam and Eve were not created to be perfect then why were these imperfect people punished for making the imperfect decision to rebel against God? And why wouldn't have God made them to be perfect?

edit: And just what is the definition of perfection in regards to Adam and Eve?

psalms 91 · Nov 11, 2008

Hmm, by that reasoning tyhen the angels had a lot of problems, which some did. Free will is exactly that a freedom to choose between that which is right and that which is wrong. The problem witrh this thought and many others like it out there today is that the ultimate is that God is not perfect and further down the road why trust or believe in God? Would seem to me that it is easy to understand where that logic came from

Tamara224 · Nov 11, 2008

It all depends on how you define perfect.

Perfect:

1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman. 2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect. 3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes. 4.entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime. 5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy. 6. thorough; complete; utter: perfect strangers. 7. pure or unmixed: perfect yellow. 8. unqualified; absolute: He has perfect control over his followers. 9. expert; accomplished; proficient. 10.unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree: He made a perfect fool of himself.

Physically perfect? Yes, they were, and that's why I voted yes. They were perfect specimens of human beings - no flaws, no deformities, no genetic mutations, etc. This fits the 1st definition.

Spiritually perfect is a much more complex topic. In the strictest sense of the word - only God is, was or ever will be perfect. See definition numbers 2 and 4.

Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings. Part of the nature of human beings is to ability to made choices (a human who is incapable of making a decision is considered flawed - incompetent). This ability to choose, in itself, is not a flaw - it is simply something in the nature of humans. The fact that the ability to choose can (and was) used wrongly, does not detract from the perfection of that ability.

Faulty · Nov 11, 2008

Child-of-Zion said:
Belief #1
Adam and Eve were created perfect.

Issue with #1: If Adam and Eve were created to be perfect then wouldn't they have always made the perfect choice with their freedom of will? In other words, if they were perfect then wouldn't they have remained sinless?

My choice. God don't make mistakes.

The fact they screwed up shows them as being perfect as far as what God desired. God wanted to share His fellowship with something that desired it. And that desire had to be a free will choice in their part.

So when you successfully make something with free will, the chance for them to make mistakes, or even turn against you exists. God made them with a perfect free will, which made them a perfect creation.

Had they not been able to make mistakes and exercise disobedience, they would have been imperfect.

Child-of-Zion · Nov 11, 2008

Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings. Part of the nature of human beings is to ability to made choices (a human who is incapable of making a decision is considered flawed - incompetent). This ability to choose, in itself, is not a flaw - it is simply something in the nature of humans.

I hadn't thought of perfection that way before. I'm still not sure where I stand on this but I can see that point. I was thinking that God may have created them imperfect-- which means they had a definite need for Him since they could not be self-sustaining.
It really does depend on the whole definition of perfection.

Tamara224 · Nov 11, 2008

Child-of-Zion said:
I hadn't thought of perfection that way before. I'm still not sure where I stand on this but I can see that point. I was thinking that God may have created them imperfect-- which means they had a definite need for Him since they could not be self-sustaining.
It really does depend on the whole definition of perfection.

Exactly. In the sense that they were not self-sufficient, they were not made perfect. But only God is perfect in that only God is self-sufficient... God does not need anything. Humans, even Adam and Eve, have many needs, not the least of which is God.

MrSnow · Nov 11, 2008

It just depends on what is meant by "perfect". If, by "perfect", we mean that they were without sin, then yes. But all of us know that.

Were they what God set out to create? I believe that the answer to that is yes. Otherwise God would have created something else.

But I do not believe that they were all that they were capable of being.

When it comes to the "image" and "likeness" of God, I believe that the image is static, but the likeness is dynamic. We're all in the image of God, and I don't believe that there are degrees of image. But I do believe that the likeness varies from person to person. I also believe that we will grow eternally in the likeness of God after we are raised from the dead, since God is eternal and infinite.

And this next part is just my opinion and is not really grounded in any particular verse. I do not hold to this as actual doctrine. It is just a thought. But I think that the Word would have become flesh whether we'd sinned or not; that God would have revealed Himself fully by becoming man, thereby also drawing mankind into His own life more fully by joining His life to ours through the Incarnation. If you ask me to back that up Scripturally I'd be at a loss of words.

So although they were sinless, I don't think they were perfect, since they had room to grow into Godliness (or Godlikeness).

jeolmstead · Nov 11, 2008

I said no…..

Although either answer puts you in a pickle.

Even “perfection” is an ambiguous term.

Does having the ability to sin make one less perfect then otherwise?

Then a mosquito is more perfect then man, as it can never do anything other then function as programmed.

God made man a little lower then Himself to have relationship with him. I believe Freewill exists. Adam chose to rebel against God and the breath of God left him.

I guess the reason I said no is that through Christ the breath of God has returned to man.
His life is now in me. I feel as if I have returned to that place Adam was before the fall and I know I’m not perfect.

Perhaps Adam was not made perfect, but, was in the process of being perfected (as I am)

John O.

Optimax · Nov 11, 2008

Tamara224 said:
It all depends on how you define perfect.

Perfect:

1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman. 2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect. 3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes. 4.entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime. 5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy. 6. thorough; complete; utter: perfect strangers. 7. pure or unmixed: perfect yellow. 8. unqualified; absolute: He has perfect control over his followers. 9. expert; accomplished; proficient. 10.unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree: He made a perfect fool of himself.

Physically perfect? Yes, they were, and that's why I voted yes. They were perfect specimens of human beings - no flaws, no deformities, no genetic mutations, etc. This fits the 1st definition.

Spiritually perfect is a much more complex topic. In the strictest sense of the word - only God is, was or ever will be perfect. See definition numbers 2 and 4.

Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings. Part of the nature of human beings is to ability to made choices (a human who is incapable of making a decision is considered flawed - incompetent). This ability to choose, in itself, is not a flaw - it is simply something in the nature of humans. The fact that the ability to choose can (and was) used wrongly, does not detract from the perfection of that ability.

I agree with this. It is written so well I didn't try to replicate it.

I voted yes also based on these def.

jeolmstead · Nov 11, 2008

Or maybe Adam was perfect as long as he was plugged into God. Imperfection happens when he unplugs himself.

(Again, just like me)

John O.

Svt4Him · Nov 11, 2008

They were created innocent, IMO.

whatfor · Nov 11, 2008

All of creation was created perfect, including Adam and Eve

Now I have a question stuck in my head, just gotta work out how to post it then start a new thread.

Alpine · Nov 11, 2008

I think so. Since they chose to sin, death, sickness and struggle is the curse the human race has all inherited, that would indicate that their state prior to that was essentially as perfect as a human being could have.

Cassidy · Nov 11, 2008

Well I see it this way...

Adam was physically perfect and sinless and with the ability to sin.

Christ (being the second Adam) was physically perfect and sinless and with the ability to sin.

Adam became imperfect when he sinned

Christ stayed perfect because he didn't sin

What did Christ have that Adam didn't have?

Cheri67 · Nov 11, 2008

Great thread..

Faulty:

FaultySurplus said:
My choice. God don't make mistakes.

The fact they screwed up shows them as being perfect as far as what God desired. God wanted to share His fellowship with something that desired it. And that desire had to be a free will choice in their part.

So when you successfully make something with free will, the chance for them to make mistakes, or even turn against you exists. God made them with a perfect free will, which made them a perfect creation.

Had they not been able to make mistakes and exercise disobedience, they would have been imperfect.

In agreement. Nice wording

tturt · Nov 12, 2008

Good responses.

Free will worked by:
2Co 11:3 (GW) "However, I'm afraid that as the snake deceived Eve by its tricks, so your minds may somehow be lured away from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ."

Her first response was what God had said (Gen. 3:2-3). But in her second response, it was her reasonings, , experience, knowledge (the fruit was good for food); her sense of sight (pleasing in appearance – lust of the eye); plus she accepted what the serpent said as fact (Gen 3:6) instead of the truth, God's words.

We don't know what Adam thought or said, he was with her and ate.

enoch son · Nov 12, 2008

Child-of-Zion said:
Belief #1
Adam and Eve were created perfect.

Belief #2
Adam and Eve were not created perfect.

Issue with #1: If Adam and Eve were created to be perfect then wouldn't they have always made the perfect choice with their freedom of will? In other words, if they were perfect then wouldn't they have remained sinless?

Issue with #2: If Adam and Eve were not created to be perfect then why were these imperfect people punished for making the imperfect decision to rebel against God? And why wouldn't have God made them to be perfect?

edit: And just what is the definition of perfection in regards to Adam and Eve?

What the problem here? They were perfect and they did what God who is perfect wanted them to do. Or he couldn't have gotten to you. the lamb has away's been slain which is perfect.

Child-of-Zion · Nov 12, 2008

What the problem here? They were perfect and they did what God who is perfect wanted them to do.

If you read my other posts on this thread you'll see that the definition of perfection in regards to Adam and Eve is something I'm not entirely sure of.

But I don't think that God wanted them to sin. There is God's perfect will and God's permissive will. He permitted the sin but if it was God's perfect will for them to rebel, then why would He punish them?

ANM29 · Nov 13, 2008

Adam and Eve was so not perfect. I was just thinking about this last night. If they were created PERFECT, they would not have had the ability to disobey God.

heron · Nov 13, 2008

God said it was good, just like the earth and animals and other things He created. He didn't announce them perfect -- just seemed to be happy with what He made.

The creative process seldom yields perfection.

Adam and Eve... perfect?

Were Adam and Eve created perfect?

Yes

No

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