Acting against the truth

[Jonathan95]

"Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man's relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord." (CCC, 2483)

Do you think one would act against the truth, if one would leave out certain details. For example if I'd only tell my parents that I will go to a certain church, and I tell them the name of it, and the name itself doesn't have a hint of indicating that the church is Catholic, would I be acting against the truth then, if I'm not allowed to go to a Catholic church?

 

[Genersis]

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man's relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

2487 Every offense committed against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation, even if its author has been forgiven. When it is impossible publicly to make reparation for a wrong, it must be made secretly. If someone who has suffered harm cannot be directly compensated, he must be given moral satisfaction in the name of charity. This duty of reparation also concerns offenses against another's reputation. This reparation, moral and sometimes material, must be evaluated in terms of the extent of the damage inflicted. It obliges in conscience.

Looks like a bit of a grey area.

Is there anything on leaving out information to deceive?
Does what you're are doing count as deception?

These are both questions you might want to find answers for before reaching a conclusion.

Perhaps you should talk with a priest?

 

[MikeK]

"Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man's relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord." (CCC, 2483)

Do you think one would act against the truth, if one would leave out certain details. For example if I'd only tell my parents that I will go to a certain church, and I tell them the name of it, and the name itself doesn't have a hint of indicating that the church is Catholic, would I be acting against the truth then, if I'm not allowed to go to a Catholic church?

Witholding truths from people who have no right to it is not a sin, lying is. You are not obliged to tell your parents everything they might wish to know about the Church (though you might be if you are a dependant of theirs or living by some arrangement in their home) but you may not lie directly to them. If they ask if it is a Catholic Church you might under some circumstances say "Catholic? Don't be rediculous!" but you cannot say "no".

 

[Jonathan95]

Witholding truths from people who have no right to it is not a sin, lying is. You are not obliged to tell your parents everything they might wish to know about the Church (though you might be if you are a dependant of theirs or living by some arrangement in their home) but you may not lie directly to them. If they ask if it is a Catholic Church you might under some circumstances say "Catholic? Don't be rediculous!" but you cannot say "no".

I do live in their home. However, I also read in the CCC that I'm not obliged to obey them in all cases, "[...] if a child is convinced in conscience that it would be morally wrong to obey a particular order, he must not do so." (CCC, 2217).

 

[MikeK]

I do live in their home. However, I also read in the CCC that I'm not obliged to obey them in all cases, "[...] if a child is convinced in conscience that it would be morally wrong to obey a particular order, he must not do so." (CCC, 2217).

Well, there you go!

You still cannot lie to them.

 

[Jonathan95]

Well, there you go!

You still cannot lie to them.

Well, what I wonder was if I'd be lying by acting against the truth by just telling them the name of the church I will attend, and not that it's a Catholic church?

 

[MikeK]

Well, what I wonder was if I'd be lying by acting against the truth by just telling them the name of the church I will attend, and not that it's a Catholic church?

Nein

 

[AlanFromWichita]

If they forbid you to go to a Catholic Church, and you said you live in their house but I would add "if you're a minor under 18" then going to the church at all would be disobedient. I'm not sure how "immoral" it is to ask you not to go to Church, unless you're a baptized Catholic perhaps. And if you're not, then I don't see that the CCC has "jurisdiction" over your conscience -- I suggest you sort it out for yourself and how you feel personally because the risk here is that you are using the CCC to "excuse" going against your parents. So I also think there is "grey area" to be considered.

For example, if you're not a baptized Catholic, then I think it's a stretch to say you have a conscientious obligation to disobey your parents who are "immorally" asking you not to go to Catholic Church, based on a Catholic document.

Second issue is if you make that decision to go against their will, is to stand up and tell them, avoid the subject entirely, or lie to them about it. If you say you're going to a church knowing they will think it's not Catholic, and would be upset if they knew it was, then it really isn't any different than if you gave them any other phony alibi, like, "I was just at the library." The only difference between the two stories is what is the risk of the "real truth" coming out, and what is the likely result when/if it does? Like -- which would be worse if they learned you had not given them the details you knew they would find pertinent. These are some possible planning issues to consider when making these decisions.

Alan

 

[Jonathan95]

If they forbid you to go to a Catholic Church, and you said you live in their house but I would add "if you're a minor under 18" then going to the church at all would be disobedient. I'm not sure how "immoral" it is to ask you not to go to Church, unless you're a baptized Catholic perhaps. And if you're not, then I don't see that the CCC has "jurisdiction" over your conscience -- I suggest you sort it out for yourself and how you feel personally because the risk here is that you are using the CCC to "excuse" going against your parents. So I also think there is "grey area" to be considered.

For example, if you're not a baptized Catholic, then I think it's a stretch to say you have a conscientious obligation to disobey your parents who are "immorally" asking you not to go to Catholic Church, based on a Catholic document.

Second issue is if you make that decision to go against their will, is to stand up and tell them, avoid the subject entirely, or lie to them about it. If you say you're going to a church knowing they will think it's not Catholic, and would be upset if they knew it was, then it really isn't any different than if you gave them any other phony alibi, like, "I was just at the library." The only difference between the two stories is what is the risk of the "real truth" coming out, and what is the likely result when/if it does? Like -- which would be worse if they learned you had not given them the details you knew they would find pertinent. These are some possible planning issues to consider when making these decisions.

Alan

I'm baptized, though not by a Catholic priest, but it was in water, and with a trinitarian formula, so it's considered valid by many.

However, I once asked if I could go to a Catholic church, and they said I'd have to go there by myself then, even though my dad was going to drive to the city where that church is in.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I'm baptized, though not by a Catholic priest, but it was in water, and with a trinitarian formula, so it's considered valid by many.

However, I once asked if I could go to a Catholic church, and they said I'd have to go there by myself then, even though my dad was going to drive to the city where that church is in.

Well, at least they didn't say you couldn't go at all.

Alan