ACNA and the 39 Articles of Religon

Waxwing · Oct 12, 2011

RadixLecti said:
ACNA seems to value to articles to some extent, but it has not come down with a particularly firm stance on them (in the same way that the Jerusalem Declaration does for example)

The calvinist tone of the articles is stronger when you read the article on Predestination in conjunction with the one on Free Will.

Here's some [friendly] food for thought for you as a Catholic:

Other than Infra/Supra Lapsarianism, what is the difference between the views of Calvin and St. Thomas Aquinas on Predestination (not other related issues, just predestination itself)?

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your question...some of this stuff goes over my head .......Reformed Theology and those that subscribe to and explain it are very good. I mean on one level it makes sense, Reformed people seem well read and are quite adept at defending their position. My head and heart can't grasp the other implications that this theology entails but I grant it is a legitimate, historical and well reasoned position.

R_A · Oct 12, 2011

Waxwing said:
Huh, sounds like I did read something into the Articles that aren't there....so it is a Calvinistic Document. Does this jive with what regular and ACNA Anglicans believe?

Did you see my response?

I always thought they were Armenian.

Arminius himself was Reformed, he was actually a professor of Calvin's Institutes. He found the way to explain both predestination and free will, through the concept of prevenient grace. Similarly in the Catholic world, Molina found the way to reconcile predestination and free will, through the concept of middle knowledge.

This is a huge controversy among the Calvinists, because to them the very concept of free will is antithetical, and so anyone who even considers free will, as both Arminius and Molina have done, have been deemed as enemies who, through free will, have denied predestination, instead of who they actually were, thinkers who reconciled free will with predestination (making both possible).

In short, the Anglican 39 Articles side with Arminius and Molina, being both for hardline predestination, and not denying free will.

Waxwing · Oct 12, 2011

R_A said:
Did you see my response?

Arminius himself was Reformed, he was actually a professor of Calvin's Institutes. He found the way to explain both predestination and free will, through the concept of prevenient grace. Similarly in the Catholic world, Molina found the way to reconcile predestination and free will, through the concept of middle knowledge.

This is a huge controversy among the Calvinists, because to them the very concept of free will is antithetical, and so anyone who even considers free will, as both Arminius and Molina have done, have been deemed as enemies who, through free will, have denied predestination, instead of who they actually were, thinkers who reconciled free will with predestination (making both possible).

In short, the Anglican 39 Articles side with Arminius and Molina, being both for hardline predestination, and not denying free will.

Yes I read your response, Thanks....maybe I should rephrase the questions then: Do Anglicans/ACNA believe in predestination in the same sense as a Presbyterian or Reformed church member would?

gurneyhalleck1 · Oct 12, 2011

As a good Anglican friend of mine often says, "depends on which Anglicans you ask!"

Waxwing said:
Yes I read your response, Thanks....maybe I should rephrase the questions then: Do Anglicans/ACNA believe in predestination in the same sense as a Presbyterian or Reformed church member would?

Adam Warlock · Oct 12, 2011

gurneyhalleck1 said:
As a good Anglican friend of mine often says, "depends on which Anglicans you ask!"

They're a motley crew

gurneyhalleck1 · Oct 12, 2011

Jim told me he refuses to come on this board. I've told him he's the ultimate Anglican historian. But being a conservative, Anglo-Catholic, traditional dude, he took one look at STR and quickly decided he wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot cattle prod. (Little Ghostbusters reference)

My kids and I watched Ghostbusters the other day for a Halloween treat. My favorite part?...... "Symmetrical bookstacking!"

Adam Warlock said:
They're a motley crew

Adam Warlock · Oct 12, 2011

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Jim told me he refuses to come on this board. I've told him he's the ultimate Anglican historian. But being a conservative, Anglo-Catholic, traditional dude, he took one look at STR and quickly decided he wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot cattle prod. (Little Ghostbusters reference)

My kids and I watched Ghostbusters the other day for a Halloween treat. My favorite part?...... "Symmetrical bookstacking!"

Ghostbusters is awesome! And history, as they say, is complicated.

R_A · Oct 13, 2011

Waxwing said:
Do Anglicans/ACNA believe in predestination in the same sense as a Presbyterian or Reformed church member would?

Nope. Presbyterians follow the hardened Calvinism, which really appears after the death of Calvin (interestingly, out of the struggles concerning Arminius, that had caused many Reformed to harden their positions into what became 5-point Calvinism).

What's even worse, some modern Calvinists, seeing so many Presbyterian churches become liberal and non-Christian, have hardened even further, into what's called Ultra-Calvinism, which resembles the original 16th century view less and less. Some of those people are out there, and when they see atheist "scientific discoveries" proving how free-will is just an illusion, and that we're all just animals, instead of jumping into the fray to defend moral choice and the power of religious faith, they trumpet and cheer instead, because they think it is a support for their worldview.

It is an interesting historical note that after championing the Presbyterian system for most of his life, near his death Calvin became convinced that the Church of England had the upper-hand instead.

gurneyhalleck1 · Oct 13, 2011

Where did you read that, R.A.?

R_A said:
It is an interesting historical note that after championing the Presbyterian system for most of his life, near his death Calvin became convinced that the Church of England had the upper-hand instead.

MKJ · Oct 13, 2011

That's very interesting - in what sense did he think they had the upper hand?

I don't read the Articles as being particularly Calvinist myself. Predestination is not a Calvinist idea.

file13 · Oct 13, 2011

Adam Warlock said:
Rhinos, elephants...we need to officially label some controversy as "hippos!"

I don't know. Bringing up women, rhinos, elephants, and hippos up in the same discussion seems to conjure up some pretty negative images of women.

file13 · Oct 13, 2011

Adam Warlock said:
But yeah, this is true. And an interesting thing about it is that ACNA isn't really very Calvinist. There seem to be plenty of Wesleyans, but there are not as many classic Calvinists in the mix.

That's my impression also. Most I know in my neck of the woods are very Anglo-Catholic.

file13 · Oct 13, 2011

RadixLecti said:
I agree with your point in general, but I would make the point that in the Augustinian/ Thomistic understanding one is not predestined because of the faith that they will one day hold. Rather, they have faith because they have been predestined to have it...In this way you can't say that "regular" Christianity teaches conditional election unless you are willing to exclude St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas from what could be considered "regular".

Well said!

file13 · Oct 13, 2011

R_A said:
Nope. Presbyterians follow the hardened Calvinism, which really appears after the death of Calvin (interestingly, out of the struggles concerning Arminius, that had caused many Reformed to harden their positions into what became 5-point Calvinism).

I think you're going a bit far here brother. There is no single group of "Presbyterians" who all have the same confessions.

Also, keep in mind that the Westminster Confession was written for and officially accepted by English parliament for the Church of England. If not for Mr. Cromwell not liking those "filthy Scots," Anglicanism might have been quite different.

MKJ · Oct 13, 2011

file13 said:
That's my impression also. Most I know in my neck of the woods are very Anglo-Catholic.

I think that might be rather unusual.

R_A · Oct 13, 2011

file13 said:
I think you're going a bit far here brother. There is no single group of "Presbyterians" who all have the same confessions.

Also, keep in mind that the Westminster Confession was written for and officially accepted by English parliament for the Church of England. If not for Mr. Cromwell not liking those "filthy Scots," Anglicanism might have been quite different.

Hmmm? The Church of England was outlawed under Mr. Cromwell Puritan ministers replaced bishops; the Presbyterian Constitution (under the Geneva model) was going to be the new "Church of England".

file13 · Oct 13, 2011

R_A said:
Hmmm? The Church of England was outlawed under Mr. Cromwell Puritan ministers replaced bishops; the Presbyterian Constitution (under the Geneva model) was going to be the new "Church of England".

His Puritans were of the Congregationalist variety, not the Presbyterian. Still Reformed folks, but different church government. He kicked out the Presbyterians when he took power.

As a completely off-topic side note, I can't not think of this song every time I hear something about 'Ol Irons Sides:

The Pogues - Young Ned Of The Hill - YouTube

I have a picture of my wife in front of his statue cursing him!

file13 · Oct 13, 2011

MKJ said:
I think that might be rather unusual.

Could be. But seriously, lots of them in DFW, even in the Episcopal Churches here. Heck, even the priest of the "Reformed Episcopal Church" that's a part of the ACNA here in Dallas is big time Anglo-Catholic, and last I heard, was trying to bring in more "high church" trappings. :o

So yeah, maybe it's just here.

MKJ · Oct 13, 2011

file13 said:
Could be. But seriously, lots of them in DFW, even in the Episcopal Churches here. Heck, even the priest of the "Reformed Episcopal Church" that's a part of the ACNA here in Dallas is big time Anglo-Catholic, and last I heard, was trying to bring in more "high church" trappings. :o

So yeah, maybe it's just here.

Weird. Maybe they are high church Calvinists. I know a high Baptist congregation, so I am sure anything is possible.

mark46 · Oct 14, 2011

It is good to see a stong Anglo-Catholic presence in ACNA.

Perhaps this would be more common if ACNA didn't continue to waffle regarding WO. It seems that either decision would draw more Anglo-Catholics. If there were no WO of priests and bishops, then many more RC's would move to ACNA. If WO was clearly accepted, then many more TEC members would move to ACNA. Finally if it were clear that there would always be both modes accepted within every diocese, perhaps with a separate assistant bishop, then that might draw from all groups.

The perception of many is that ACNA is a reaction to the high-handed actions of TEC and of its actions regarding ordination of active homosexuals. Obviously, these are related issues.

I guess I would more fully accept ACNA if it really showed that it was an Anglican Church, rather than a US evangelical Church in schism from TEC. I well understand that the conservative primates have supported the current mode of ACNA. I think a wider focus, actively including all four branches of the Communion would make much more sense,

file13 said:
Could be. But seriously, lots of them in DFW, even in the Episcopal Churches here. Heck, even the priest of the "Reformed Episcopal Church" that's a part of the ACNA here in Dallas is big time Anglo-Catholic, and last I heard, was trying to bring in more "high church" trappings. :o

So yeah, maybe it's just here.

ACNA and the 39 Articles of Religon

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