Accepting Jesus as your lord and savior.

Upisoft · May 2, 2011

HISservant21 said:
but, and... The Lord JESUS CHRIST never ceased/ceases to be eternal GOD, The SON of The Living GOD
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." -Colossians 2:8-10
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;" - Colossians 1:18-20
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." -Hebrews 1:8 (That is, The Holy FATHER saying to the SON)

you misunderstand me... all human beings are born spiritually dead (except those whom GOD saves/saved in the womb)... like Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5) & John the baptist (Luke 1:15)... but physically alive, but die eventually as a result of the curse/fall of man from adam. The Lord JESUS CHRIST gives eternal life to many upon whom HE, The LORD GOD have mercy on:

So, Jesus is man and God in the same time. And He was never separated from God. Thus he didn't die from spiritual death. Apparently he was not born spiritually dead, as also few others you mention. It is obvious(from your words) people could be born spiritually alive. Why only few are chosen? Doesn't God love everyone equally?

Also if Adam's sin was transferred on us and then Jesus died for our sins, then the curse should take no more effect. If we are still affected from the curse, it is not true that Jesus has died for our sins.

HISservant21 said:
The wages of sin is the death of the soul, what precisely that entails, only The LORD GOD knows, but it ends with the total and final destruction of the soul forever. (Rom 6:23). Remember, The LORD is merciful...
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

You say you don't know what the death of soul is. I will be OK with that, if you are able to find description of the death of Jesus' soul in the Bible and give me the verse(s). However, it must be said it was the death of Jesus' soul, as you don't know what that process takes, therefore you cannot interpret it.

HISservant21 · May 2, 2011

friend,

first, there is no doubt that The LORD GOD,
"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." - Deuteronomy 32:4

Romans 9:13-26

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

razeontherock · May 2, 2011

Upisoft said:
So, Jesus is man and God in the same time. And He was never separated from God.

FALSE! Darkness came at mid day, the veil of the Temple was torn, from top to bottom. How can the symbolism be mistaken? He had Power to lay His life down, and to take it up again.

Upisoft said:
Apparently he was not born spiritually dead, as also few others you mention.

I haven't encountered these "few others mentioned," but i would limit that to Adam and Eve. I think this has solid Scriptural support.

Upisoft said:
Also if Adam's sin was transferred on us and then Jesus died for our sins, then the curse should take no more effect. If we are still affected from the curse, it is not true that Jesus has died for our sins.

According to your thinking, yes. Reality conflicts with this. Therefore, it is reasonable you need to change your thinking ... that's what Scripture is there for. Words like "might," phrases like "so that it would be possible to," come to mind.

Upisoft said:
You say you don't know what the death of soul is. I will be OK with that, if you are able to find description of the death of Jesus' soul in the Bible and give me the verse(s). However, it must be said it was the death of Jesus' soul, as you don't know what that process takes, therefore you cannot interpret it.

Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, for starters. To go more in depth, the OT bloody sacrifices ordained of G-d which Christ fulfilled. Yes, all of them. You might pay particular attention to those before Moses.

Upisoft · May 2, 2011

oi_antz said:
Hi Upisoft, I remember your smiley child photo, he looks so joyful

This is fulfilled at the end of Satan's time on earth. See Revelation 20 and 21:

Hello, I remember you too.

I've read Revelation 20 and 21. I did not find any reference to the death of Jesus there. Nor any explanation this is fulfillment of something.

oi_antz said:
First thing I notice is that those who are dead are brought back to life, regardless if they belong to Jesus or not, every person who has died is brought back to life. I find it interesting here that those whose names are in the lamb's book of life do not endure the second death, therefore they don't die for eternity. Those whose names are not written in the lamb's book of life actually do go to the lake of fire which is the second death. What I make from this is that when it is said "shall not perish but will have eternal life", it is talking about the second death where the wheat is harvested into the barn and the chaff is burnt to dust.

I can't understand from what you have said what you consider wages of sin. My question is about it and establishing that Jesus had indeed died for our sins, as it is said in the scriptures.

oi_antz said:
I hope this helps Upisoft, you left quite a good impression on my memory the last time we conversed

Thank you. It really didn't help much, as I'm not asking about the eternal life (or the benefits) aspect. I'm interested in the aspect of sin and how it was removed, if it was removed -- I'm not convinced by any interpretation till now.

razeontherock · May 2, 2011

Upisoft said:
My question is about it and establishing that Jesus had indeed died for our sins, as it is said in the scriptures.

No sin, no death. Why else did Jesus die? He repeatedly showed He had Power to escape it, at least the brutal sort he willingly submitted to.

Upisoft said:
I'm interested in the aspect of sin and how it was removed,

You have read "washed in His blood," Rev 1:5 yes? Not all aspects of this are automatically applied to all of humanity. Many different passages give insight into this, each with a slightly different take. Personally, I see some of these do apply to all of humanity, yet most require our active and knowing participation.

How? Washing of water by the Word, Baptism, Communion. In that order, those are good starters.

oi_antz · May 2, 2011

Upisoft said:
Hello, I remember you too.

I've read Revelation 20 and 21. I did not find any reference to the death of Jesus there. Nor any explanation this is fulfillment of something.

I didn't mean to give you those things. I meant only to show you how those whose names are in the book of life have survived the second death.

Upisoft said:
I can't understand from what you have said what you consider wages of sin. My question is about it and establishing that Jesus had indeed died for our sins, as it is said in the scriptures.

Here it is:

These are those whose names are not in the book of life: The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

These are those whose names are found in the book of life: Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is the destiny of those who are cast into the lake of fire: The lake of fire is the second death.

Thus, we see that those whose names are written in the lamb's book of life are not cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Instead, we see that they go on to inherit the new earth: Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. And just before this we see: He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death

Thus, John 3:16 is fulfilled "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Upisoft said:
Thank you. It really didn't help much, as I'm not asking about the eternal life (or the benefits) aspect. I'm interested in the aspect of sin and how it was removed, if it was removed -- I'm not convinced by any interpretation till now.

But the Bible is dealing with the matters of our eternal life. You must get your name written in the lamb's book of life or you will perish in the second death! This is serious Upisoft, it's not just a debate about how is the best way to manage earth! If you don't have your eternal security you stand to lose it all when judgment comes. No-one can pay for their sin, the only way to be pardoned is to be bought by the blood of Jesus. That is His wonderful eternal plan! He gave us a chance to have eternal life for free, but we blew it when we decided to doubt God's promise and ate of the tree of conscience. Jesus came along and paid our ransom so we are now His slaves, but He calls us friends because a master doesn't confide in his slaves.

Please get serious Upisoft, you have to get over that hurdle and claim your eternal salvation.
You can be eternally alive or dead, you need to open you heart to Jesus.
Just read the Bible and soon enough something will jump out and God will speak to you. All you have to do is listen to what He tells you and obey.

CryptoLutheran · May 3, 2011

Upisoft said:
In another thread I was told that I have to accept Jesus as my Lord and savior.
The guy was making clear what he was saying by "to accept Jesus". As I pointed out I accept Jesus as a character from a book.

Then I asked why should I accept him as my lord and savior?

As far as I know the Bible says that:

So, the wages for sin is death, Jesus died to pay the wages, but people definitely are still dying. So, according to the scripture, we still continue to pay for our sins.

I got no answers, so I moved this question here.

Theologically, the idea of "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" is rather new in the history of Christianity and Christian theology. Most Christians, historically and today, do not adhere to this sort of theological model.

For example, Lutheranism asserts that our justification is entirely an act of God apart from any act of human will--to put it more simply, we cannot choose Christ, Christ chooses us and this because He loves us and desires us to be saved.

Calvinism asserts something similar, though Calvinism and Lutheranism are often worlds apart theologically, and this may not be an appropriate space to discuss all those differences.

Additionally, Catholics, Orthodox and other Christians have different and distinct theologies in regard to salvation that is simply not adequately explained through the notion of "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior".

Furthermore, Christians have disagreements over how to appropriately discuss the nature and theology of the atonement--i.e. what it means to say that in Christ, His death and resurrection, we as human beings are reconciled to God and one another. Fore example: Penal Substitution is a common idea among many Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants today, but is a pretty recent newcomer on the block theologically speaking.

-CryptoLutheran

Upisoft · May 4, 2011

oi_antz said:
I didn't mean to give you those things. I meant only to show you how those whose names are in the book of life have survived the second death.

I am really not interested in discussion of eternal life in this thread. The questions I'm seeking answer for are "what is wages of sin?" and "how does the Bible show that Jesus really took care for the wages of sin instead of us"? The first answer must be answered first and will be some kind of death. The next question must be answered then by showing Jesus died indeed of this kind of death.

oi_antz said:
These are those whose names are not in the book of life: The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

These are those whose names are found in the book of life: Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is the destiny of those who are cast into the lake of fire: The lake of fire is the second death.

If this is wages of sin then when Jesus was cast into the lake of fire?

oi_antz said:
But the Bible is dealing with the matters of our eternal life.

That is only one of the aspects of the Bible. There is also the aspect of origins, history of Jews, etc. I'm not asking about anyone of those. The beggining of this post shows the aspects I'm interested in.

oi_antz said:
You must get your name written in the lamb's book of life or you will perish in the second death!

I really don't like to be told what I must do. Please let keep the discussion on topic. When I decide I need to do something and if I don't know what to do I'll ask. Don't worry about that.

oi_antz said:
Just read the Bible and soon enough something will jump out and God will speak to you. All you have to do is listen to what He tells you and obey.

I've read it more than enough and the only thing that jumps out are questions that nobody can answer in satisfying manner. I'm not ready to listen and obey a text I'm not convinced is worth listening and obeying. I'm now trying to make it believable for me that Jesus has indeed died for our sins. The only believable thing for the moment is that such person existed and that He died.

Upisoft · May 4, 2011

CryptoLutheran said:
Additionally, Catholics, Orthodox and other Christians have different and distinct theologies in regard to salvation that is simply not adequately explained through the notion of "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior".

The difference between theological views is no excuse to stop searching for the truth. I'm living in an country where the main religion is Eastern Orthodoxy. As far as the priests are concerned I'm already saved as I was already baptized as a child. It doesn't matter that I personally do not believe. People here baptize their children at age of 1-2 usually. Could a child 1 years old have a belief in Christ? I doubt it. So, in matter of speaking if I had stopped thinking and asking questions I probably would have an Orthodox Christian icon in my details. But I prefer to define myself, not some priest that sprinkle me with water some time ago.

razeontherock · May 4, 2011

Upisoft said:
The questions I'm seeking answer for are "what is wages of sin?" and "how does the Bible show that Jesus really took care for the wages of sin instead of us"? The first answer must be answered first and will be some kind of death. The next question must be answered then by showing Jesus died indeed of this kind of death.

I've already done this much, in this thread. You might review what I said and probe for more detail? Also, you asked if Jesus was thrown into the lake of fire. We do have it that He descended into hell, preached, and freed Saints who had gone before.

Upisoft said:
I'm now trying to make it believable for me that Jesus has indeed died for our sins. The only believable thing for the moment is that such person existed and that He died.

2 things I might direct your attention towards: Can you convict Jesus of sin? What you really need is the Resurrection. None of these pieces come together w/o it.

oi_antz · May 5, 2011

Upisoft said:
I am really not interested in discussion of eternal life in this thread.

But if not then why are you discussing the topic? I think you really don't realise that the issue is ALL about eternal life. We are destined to eternal death (IE no eternal life) because that was the result of introducing sin to the world. Jesus has made a way that we can live forever. At the end of the time God has appointed, the world will be harvested, judged and the ones that Jesus has chosen will inherit earth and He will be our king forever.

Upisoft said:
The questions I'm seeking answer for are "what is wages of sin?"

Revelation 20:15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Upisoft said:
and "how does the Bible show that Jesus really took care for the wages of sin instead of us"?

The fact that God forsook Him on the cross "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?". And never after that time has God forsaken one of Jesus' disciples. Thus, Jesus bore upon Himself the sins of everyone that "In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence" (Ephesians 3:12)

Upisoft said:
The first answer must be answered first and will be some kind of death. The next question must be answered then by showing Jesus died indeed of this kind of death.

I don't understand what this means, can you please rephrase it?

Upisoft said:
If this is wages of sin then when Jesus was cast into the lake of fire?

No, I think you could be suffering from some false teaching, there is plenty of it around. Jesus suffered and died so He could ascend to the tabernacle in heaven and make the necessary atonement (Hebrews 9:12) that our sins will be forgiven. Does this mean though that we can live in sin? Of course not! Jesus says Not everyone who calls out to me, Lord! Lord! will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

Upisoft said:
That is only one of the aspects of the Bible. There is also the aspect of origins, history of Jews, etc. I'm not asking about anyone of those. The beggining of this post shows the aspects I'm interested in.

Well I cannot help you any further than telling you the truth, and the truth is "everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

Upisoft said:
I really don't like to be told what I must do. Please let keep the discussion on topic. When I decide I need to do something and if I don't know what to do I'll ask. Don't worry about that.

I've read it more than enough and the only thing that jumps out are questions that nobody can answer in satisfying manner. I'm not ready to listen and obey a text I'm not convinced is worth listening and obeying. I'm now trying to make it believable for me that Jesus has indeed died for our sins. The only believable thing for the moment is that such person existed and that He died.

Ok, it is your call but I think if you can find the missing piece of the puzzle then you'd see it a bit differently and that might be all you're up against.

Upisoft · May 5, 2011

oi_antz said:
But if not then why are you discussing the topic? I think you really don't realise that the issue is ALL about eternal life. We are destined to eternal death (IE no eternal life) because that was the result of introducing sin to the world. Jesus has made a way that we can live forever. At the end of the time God has appointed, the world will be harvested, judged and the ones that Jesus has chosen will inherit earth and He will be our king forever.

Because what I want to discuss is a separate topic. When one applies for a job and wants to discuss what are one's responsibilities, one does not expect the answer to be "but your salary will be doubled" every time.

oi_antz said:
The fact that God forsook Him on the cross "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?". And never after that time has God forsaken one of Jesus' disciples. Thus, Jesus bore upon Himself the sins of everyone that "In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence" (Ephesians 3:12)

May I ask how this have happened if Jesus and his Father are one?

"I and my Father are one. " (John 10:30)

oi_antz said:
I don't understand what this means, can you please rephrase it?

Can you show that Jesus got the wages of sin instead of us? Or maybe you think that his physical death on the cross was enough?

oi_antz said:
No, I think you could be suffering from some false teaching, there is plenty of it around. Jesus suffered and died so He could ascend to the tabernacle in heaven and make the necessary atonement (Hebrews 9:12) that our sins will be forgiven.

So, you say that Jesus did not die for our sins, but instead for our salvation. However I can read in the Bible it is written clear He died for our sins.

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; " (1 Corinthians 15:3)

Ih8s8n · May 5, 2011

Upisoft: I'm sorry that I've been away so long, but I'll jump back in. In regards to being "spiritually dead", we read:

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:1-3)

Every one of us who are participating in this thread have had the same background. We've all been led (some, no longer) by "the prince of the power of the air (Satan), the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience". This disobedience has manifested itself in our "conversation" or behavior/manner of life. As a result, we've all been at one time "children of wrath, by nature" and deemed to be "spiritually dead" or "dead in trespasses and sins". In other words, this "spiritual deadness" doesn't mean that we're not physically alive, it just means that we are/have been spiritually separated from God due to our trespasses and sins. If you go all the way back to the garden of Eden, then you will find that God told Adam that in the day that he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would die. Well, it's rather obvious that Adam didn't die physically that day, but the account certainly shows an immediate spiritual separation (Adam was hiding when he heard the Lord's voice) between Adam and God. Along these same lines, we read such things as:

"But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." (I Timothy 5:6)

Again, this is what is actually meant by being "spiritually dead". One's "spirit" is, in essence, "dead" to God because of rebellion against Him/sin. How then did God pay for such? Well, Jesus Christ willingly became our "scapegoat"...the One Who was willing to have the sin/guilt of the world transferred upon Himself. For those of us who truly turn to Christ in repentance, God accepts Christ's sacrifice on our behalf and promises to make us "born again" of the Spirit of God. In other words, where our spirits were once alienated from God, we now become "one spirit with the Lord" (I Corinthians 6:17) by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God within our "temples" (bodies). God's covenant with His people is likened to a marriage covenant all throughout scripture, where the two become one. This is what God truly desires. Anyhow, I'm just getting my feet wet...again. Fire away with your questions. Thanks.

oi_antz · May 5, 2011

Upisoft said:
Because what I want to discuss is a separate topic. When one applies for a job and wants to discuss what are one's responsibilities, one does not expect the answer to be "but your salary will be doubled" every time.

Because you are seeing them as two different things. We are born dead until we are born again spiritually. Jesus is different, He was born spiritually alive and became spiritually dead to take on the sin of the world.

Upisoft said:
May I ask how this have happened if Jesus and his Father are one?

Have you ever read that quote in context? This is the most famous verse to misquote. The way you use it here only adds emphasis to the burden of sin Jesus took upon Himself. To be cut off from God is agony to atheists, but to the son of God Himself, all the agony of the world was His.

Upisoft said:
Can you show that Jesus got the wages of sin instead of us? Or maybe you think that his physical death on the cross was enough?

I would like you to quote the verse you are having trouble with. I have not read in The Bible where "Jesus received the wages of sin", can you please show me the verse you are talking about?

Upisoft said:
So, you say that Jesus did not die for our sins, but instead for our salvation. However I can read in the Bible it is written clear He died for our sins.

This is the verse I would like to see, can you please share it with us?

Upisoft said:
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; " (1 Corinthians 15:3)

Well what do you know, here it is. Ok, take in all that Hebrews 9 speaks about and you will see that the way He has done it.

I don't know why we can't see eye to eye, I want to break it down.

We are sinners.
Jesus is not a sinner.
The wages of sin is death.
We are due to face the penalty of death for our sins.
Jesus has made atonement in heaven for our sins.
When time has finished, God will judge everyone for their deeds.
The unsaved will have their place in the lake of fire, this is the second death.
Those with their name in the book of life will inherit the new earth.

Do you have any trouble seeing the relevance of this to your OP?

Ih8s8n · May 5, 2011

Upisoft said:
Also if Adam's sin was transferred on us and then Jesus died for our sins, then the curse should take no more effect. If we are still affected from the curse, it is not true that Jesus has died for our sins.

Upisoft: Rather than give you a long theological answer, I'll simply say this:

As we both know, if someone discovered the cure for cancer and you (Hey, I had to choose somebody...), in your stubbornness, refused the cure, who should we blame for your death? The one who discovered the cure and made it readily available to you or you who stubbornly refused to take it? Same principle, my friend.

oi_antz · May 10, 2011

Upisoft, I don't want to leave you in bad condition thinking that Jesus would like to see your name erased from the book of life, and usually it's not such a difficult thing for people to be saved. All you need to do is acknowledge that Jesus is right and whatever you disagree with Him about is an issue that you need His help with, and He can help. Look, if He could rescue me from the raging addictions of cigarettes, marijuana, alcohol, shoe fetish, lust, homosexual attractions, all without me feeling like I have lost a part of my life that I love so much then He can do the same for you.

See, we are naturally carrying the burden of the sin in our lives, and He wants to lift it from us but we find it so hard to receive a free gift without feeling somewhat indebted to the giver. Jesus says "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light". If you try to please God some other way then you will be struggling against the desires of your flesh by using the power of your own flesh to fight against yourself. You need the power of the Holy Spirit to conquer the battle against sin. All you have to do is decide to confess that Jesus is Lord and comply with what He tells you when you read the Bible, then with a little time and practicing what He teaches you, you will be strong enough to stand against all sin even the sin in the world around you.

Please let us know how you are doing, a lot of people love you very much.

Dark_Lite · May 11, 2011

Upisoft said:
In another thread I was told that I have to accept Jesus as my Lord and savior.
The guy was making clear what he was saying by "to accept Jesus". As I pointed out I accept Jesus as a character from a book.

Then I asked why should I accept him as my lord and savior?

As far as I know the Bible says that:

So, the wages for sin is death, Jesus died to pay the wages, but people definitely are still dying. So, according to the scripture, we still continue to pay for our sins.

I got no answers, so I moved this question here.

Pretty much a blind post. The simplest answer is that physical death has always existed, and the Bible refers to spiritual death. There is nothing in Genesis to indicate that there was some kind of utopian world where everybody was immortal. Adam and Eve had to eat. Eating = need for survival. Eating plants kills them. The world was created "very good," not "perfect" (whatever perfect means, anyway).

Accepting Jesus as your lord and savior.

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