abraham and Isaac question

[inhimitrust]

Can anyone help me out on this. I had this posted on the wrong board.

According to God, Abraham's "heir" was to come from his own "body". We know Ishmael was born first thru the slave Hagar, but Isaac was conceived by Sarah. The way it looks, the "heir" would be born from Abraham himself! I know the bible is mostly devinely figurative and symbolical, but why would God say from his own "body" instead of his "loins"? Paul seems to imply that Isaac was born thru the "spirit". Any ideas as to what this might represent? Thanks

Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

NKJV genesis 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD [came] to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."

Galations 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac [was,] are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

[Crazy Liz]

The relationship between Abraham and Isaac is even more complicated than that. Read Genesis 15:1-18:15, skip 18:16-19:38 (the Lot/Sodom excursus), and pick up the Abraham story again at 19:1-22:19.

Who was Isaac's biological father? Are you sure?

Now, read what Jesus says about Abraham's heirs and offspring:

and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

See also Luke 3:8, Luke 19:9, John 8:39. There may be a fair bit of irony in these scriptures discussing Isaac's paternity. Isaac was Abraham's heir. That is very clear. Yet Isaac's biological origins are ambiguous, according to scripture. When Jesus appears, he proclaims that being Abraham's heir is not a matter of biology.

Paul continues the discussion of who is/are Abraham's heirs. See Galatians 3, Romans 4, Romans 9:1-9.

The irony was not lost on either Jesus or Paul that Isaac, Abraham's heir, could not be proven (long before the days of DNA technology) to have come from him biologically at all, but rather, his legal paternity was settled by a ritual between Abraham and Abimelech shortly before Isaac's birth and confirmed by God on Mount Moriah.

 

[Ryan Spence]

inhimitrust,



The way I see it is that the Holy Spirit gave Sarah the ability to conceive a child via intimate relations with Abraham. In this way Isaac came from Abraham's body via sperm from Abraham, and Sarah became pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit, and this is how Isaac was born by the Holy Spirit. This is just a quess of course.

Your brother in Chirst,
Ryan

 

[herev]

In the Ancient Near East, it was assumed that the woman's womb was nothing more than a nest, a place to incubate the seed that was planted by the man. That Isaac came from Abraham's body is nothing more than this, despite the usage of the word body instead of loins.
As to Isaac's paternity, the promise was threatened twice by Abraham's passing Sarah off as his sister instead of his wife. In the first, Pharoah apparently did sleep with Sarah--No child is reported from that union.
Later, Abimelech takes her into his house, but the scriptures definitively state that YHWH kept him from sleeping with her. I see no claim of scripture that his paternity is in question--quite the opposite.

 

[St. Worm2]

I agree with Herev, Liz. Could you be a little more specific. I have never heard it even suggested that Abraham might not be Isaac's 'biological' father. Of course, while I have heard MANY things, I know I haven't heard it all I look forward to seeing what you have to say about this.

Thanks!

 

[christian-only]

Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

That's right, Jesus is physically the son of Abraham and of David. (Rom 9:5) "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

NKJV genesis 15:4

And behold, the word of the LORD [came] to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."

The NKJV and NIV mistranslated as "body." The KJV translates the word as "bowels" but it is the same Hebrew word used for "womb" elsewhere. God means that the heir will come from Abraham's own womb. But Abraham is a man! How can he have a womb? Remember this saying "the twain shall be one flesh." Abraham's womb is the womb of his wife Sarah who is one flesh with him.

Galations 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac [was,] are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Esau born according to flesh only. Jacob born according to flesh first, then according to Spirit. This meaning is obvious from the phrase "even so [it is] now." Paul does not mean "even now are some men born of intercourse between a man and woman but others of woman by the Spirit only." That does not happen "even so now." But what does happen "even so now" is that all are born according to the flesh, and then later some are born according to the Spirit also though others are not.

So then, Abraham is the biological father of Isaac.

The irony was not lost on either Jesus or Paul that Isaac, Abraham's heir, could not be proven (long before the days of DNA technology) to have come from him biologically at all, but rather, his legal paternity was settled by a ritual between Abraham and Abimelech shortly before Isaac's birth and confirmed by God on Mount Moriah.

If you are saying that Abimelech is Isaac's father, I suggest you read Genesis 20:4 "But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?"

When Jesus appears, he proclaims that being Abraham's heir is not a matter of biology.

I think it was John the Baptist, but it doesn't matter, because it doesn't apply to Isaac. Note the phrase from Gen 21:12 "in Isaac shall thy seed be called." Isaac was the immediate biological heir, but the Seed (Christ) was going to come through him and those who would be joint heirs were to be called through him (through Isaac). Is Isaac called through Isaac? No. So then, Isaac is not the heir by faith but by biology, but Christians indeed are heirs by faith.

 

[Jorgen Child]

According to God, Abraham's "heir" was to come from his own "body". We know Ishmael was born first thru the slave Hagar, but Isaac was conceived by Sarah. The way it looks, the "heir" would be born from Abraham himself!

The Hebrew me'e refers to the inward part of a person's flesh - intestines and testicles included. So Isaac was in fact claimed to come "mime'eka" - in other words - from Abraham's procreative abilities.

 

[billwald]

Abraham had a spiritual line and a biological line. Note generally when St Paul refers to the biological line he uses "the Jews" and when referring to the spiritual line, "Israel."

 

[ChosenOne]

Can anyone help me out on this. I had this posted on the wrong board.

According to God, Abraham's "heir" was to come from his own "body". We know Ishmael was born first thru the slave Hagar, but Isaac was conceived by Sarah. The way it looks, the "heir" would be born from Abraham himself! I know the bible is mostly devinely figurative and symbolical, but why would God say from his own "body" instead of his "loins"? Paul seems to imply that Isaac was born thru the "spirit". Any ideas as to what this might represent? Thanks

Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

NKJV genesis 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD [came] to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."

Galations 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac [was,] are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

According to the KJV Genesis 15:4 says....................but he that shall come forth OUT OF THINE OWN BOWELS shall be thine heir.