About Luke?

[timlamb]

Hey, great conversation and fellowship going on, new people with a good word, am enjoying the posting.

Hey, why would the Paulines have such a problem with Luke. Unlike Matthew who wrote to the Jews and discussed post rapture events for their information, Luke wrote to the gentiles and spoke of pre rapture events.
I apprediate the teaching of Jesus in both books, but Luke is as much gentile as Paul, why is he thrown in with Matthew in the dispensational teaching?

 

[jeffweeder]

Good point Tim.
But what do you mean by luke being pre-trib ?
There all pre, or all post.
Sounds pre-post orus doest it

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Good point Tim.
But what do you mean by luke being pre-trib ?
There all pre, or all post.
Sounds pre-post orus doest it

I thnk he just means the specific instruction Matthew records which is specifically for the nation of Israel after the Chuch is taken and the Great Tribulation begins.

Luke was with Paul before he wrote "the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to -himself", his own witness, or testimony of the "Good News" to all men.

 

[timlamb]

Good point Tim.
But what do you mean by luke being pre-trib ?
There all pre, or all post.
Sounds pre-post orus doest it

Yes Yeshasavedme is correct. My point was matthew recorded the prophecy of Jesus for the Jews and how to cope and what to expect during the tribulation. Luke gave us Jesus words of prophecy for the church. This is not to say that anything else Jesus said can be designated inaplicable in either writing, and the salvation and behavioral teachings and other prophecy apply to us all.

Since Luke was teaching gentiles, (I personaly believe John wrote for the church as well), according to Pauline teaching he is either being ignored or he must be wrong. If Luke is not misleading the gentile Greeks, then where ever his writing is in agreement with the other gospels, the Paulines should not dispute that either. Their "Dividing" doesn't Jive, it only divides.

 

[GraceFan]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are actually part of the Old Testament. They record Christs ministry on the earth.

The gospel for we who are the church which is His body today isn't found in the four gospels. Those are still teaching Gods Kingdom criteria to the Jewish people.

I guess this is a dispensational forum with non dispensational posters.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are actually part of the Old Testament. They record Christs ministry on the earth.

The gospel for we who are the church which is His body today isn't found in the four gospels. Those are still teaching Gods Kingdom criteria to the Jewish people.

I guess this is a dispensational forum with non dispensational posters.

MAD is not mainstream and not recognized as true "dispensational" doctrine.
Anything that denies the Gospel of Christ as witnessed to us by the four witnesses of the New Testament is false.

 

[GraceFan]

MAD is not mainstream and not recognized as true "dispensational" doctrine.
Anything that denies the Gospel of Christ as witnessed to us by the four witnesses of the New Testament is false.

LOL...says who?

Why are you in charge of a forum that deals with doctrine you dont even know about or acknowledge? That seems strange to me.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

MAD is not mainstream and not recognized as true "dispensational" doctrine.
Anything that denies the Gospel of Christ as witnessed to us by the four witnesses of the New Testament is false.

Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the end, the Last Word from God. -there is no Word after He is come in flesh of the second human being creation.
-And GraceFan,
I am not in charge of this forum. -You have no right to make such an accusation. I have to keep the rules the same as anyone -and I endeavor to do so -though it is admittedly a temptation at times...
So why are you here? -is it your purpose to troll for converts to a doctrine which is totally refuted by Scripture, the prophets, and historical writings?

 

[jeffweeder]

I thnk he just means the specific instruction Matthew records which is specifically for the nation of Israel after the Chuch is taken and the Great Tribulation begins.

Yes Yeshasavedme is correct. My point was matthew recorded the prophecy of Jesus for the Jews and how to cope and what to expect during the tribulation. Luke gave us Jesus words of prophecy for the church. This is not to say that anything else Jesus said can be designated inaplicable in either writing, and the salvation and behavioral teachings and other prophecy apply to us all.

I think they both recorded the same conversation- Jesus discourse on the end.
It was his disciples who asked the qu, and it is them he was addressing, not Israel.
look at the similarities,
matt
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when[1][Lit and ] His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

lk
5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said,
6 "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."

matt
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

lk
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize[12][Lit know ] that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains,

matt

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the[18][Or heaven ] sky, and the powers of the[19][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[20][Or chosen ones ] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.



lk
25"There will be signs[16][Or attesting miracles ] in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world[17][Lit inhabited earth ]; for the powers of the[18][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28"But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The GT seems to start when the Jews were exiled and finishes when the times of the Gentiles ends;
LK
Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the[13][Lit her ] city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the[14][Lit her ] city;
22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land[15][Or earth ] and wrath to this people;
24and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

MATT



16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever[8][Lit He who ] is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 "Whoever[9][Lit He who ] is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life[10][Lit flesh ] would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect[11][Or chosen ones ] those days will be cut short.
23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ[12][I.e. Messiah],' or 'There[13][Lit here ] He is,' do not believe him.
24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show[14][Lit give ] great signs[15][Or attesting miracles ] and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect[16][Or chosen ones ].
25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.

The disciples heeded this, and got out, but those who didnt believe stayed and suffered greatly.

I believe the rapture is the last thing to happen;

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and[14][Lit who ] remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The lord descends then
The ressurection occurs then
The rapture happens


6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when[5][Lit at the revelation of the Lord Jesus ] the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His[6][Lit the angels of His power ] mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in[7][Or in the persons of ] His saints[8][Or holy ones ] on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its[2][Lit the works in it ] works will be burned[3][Two early mss read discovered ] up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
What do you think ?

 

[timlamb]

look at the similarities,

I am sure this is from the same discourse, but shared by a jew to a jewish audience, and a gentile to a greek audience.

matt
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when[1][Lit and ] His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

lk
5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said,
6 "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."

Obviously the same thing, 70 AD

matt
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Definately tribulation time, armageddon.

lk
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize[12][Lit know ] that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains,

Sounds like 70 AD to me.

matt

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the[18][Or heaven ] sky, and the powers of the[19][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[20][Or chosen ones ] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

definately post trib second comming.

lk
25"There will be signs[16][Or attesting miracles ] in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world[17][Lit inhabited earth ]; for the powers of the[18][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28"But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The GT seems to start when the Jews were exiled and finishes when the times of the Gentiles ends;

This is out of order. the next verse you quote preceeds this and speaks of the time of the Gentiles, which ends with the rapture. Verses 25-27 seem to speak of post rapture events, but clarification comes in verse 28 when he says "But when these things begin ...your redemption is drawing near."LK

Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the[13][Lit her ] city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the[14][Lit her ] city;
22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land[15][Or earth ] and wrath to this people;
24and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

With the jews being "led off as captives". Sounds like the distruction of 70 AD to me.

MATT



16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever[8][Lit He who ] is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 "Whoever[9][Lit He who ] is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life[10][Lit flesh ] would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect[11][Or chosen ones ] those days will be cut short.
23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ[12][I.e. Messiah],' or 'There[13][Lit here ] He is,' do not believe him.
24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show[14][Lit give ] great signs[15][Or attesting miracles ] and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect[16][Or chosen ones ].
25 "Behold, I have told you in advance

Tribulation and armageddon

The disciples heeded this, and got out, but those who didnt believe stayed and suffered greatly.

I believe the rapture is the last thing to happen;

I think your timeline is off. Are you saying the rapture comes after the ...when?

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and[14][Lit who ] remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words

rapture

The lord descends then
The ressurection occurs then
The rapture happens

http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Th 1:6')

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
...
10 when He comes to be glorified in[7][Or in the persons of ] His saints[8][Or holy ones ] on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Judgment

http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:9')

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its[2][Lit the works in it ] works will be burned[3][Two early mss read discovered ] up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
What do you think ?

Post judgment, Revelation chapter 21

 

[jeffweeder]

G'day Tim hows it goin

I am sure this is from the same discourse, but shared by a jew to a jewish audience, and a gentile to a greek audience.

Should it matter. Jesus was addressing his followers.
What Jesus said here, he says to everyone.

I think your timeline is off. Are you saying the rapture comes after the ...when?

Quote:
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and[14][Lit who ] remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words

rapture


Quote:
The lord descends then
The ressurection occurs then
The rapture happens

Yes, after the ressurection-in a twinkling of an eye it all happens.
do verses 16 and 17 suggest this.?

Jn says that i will be like him, when i see him as he is.

Jesus says ,and i will raise him up the last day.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
But we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye.-at the last trump

So we lift our eyes and see the lord coming in power and glory, then in a twinkling we are changed, and we are gathered to meet him in the air .

We do not get raptured away until the dead in Christ are raised first.


The Coming Day of the Lord-2Pet 3
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5 For when[1][Or they are willfully ignorant of this fact, that ] they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its[2][Lit the works in it ] works will be burned up.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[timlamb]

G'day Tim hows it goin

Great and Glorious.

Should it matter. Jesus was addressing his followers.
What Jesus said here, he says to everyone.

No it matters not. My point is only that Jesus prophecied much, Luke focused on the rapture, which is when the church will go. Matthew must have known the Jews would not, as a people, go in the rapture of the church so he taught them what to expect in the tribulation and second comming. It is in scripture for all left behind, that they may continue to have hope after the rapture. It would be nice if Someone would have recorded the words of Jesus cronologically so we could follow the fall of Jerusalem, persecution, the rapture, the tribulation and the second comming at a glance. Many get the tribulation and second comming confused, myself being one.

So my point of the thread is that Luke is teaching Greeks and he doesn't go into the post rapture prophecy much; and why doesn't the Paulines accept him as a gentile teacher.

I did not mean to segregate Jesus teaching, just in how the prophecy is presented.

Yes, after the ressurection-in a twinkling of an eye it all happens.
do verses 16 and 17 suggest this.?

Jn says that i will be like him, when i see him as he is.

Jesus says ,and i will raise him up the last day.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
But we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye.-at the last trump

So we lift our eyes and see the lord coming in power and glory, then in a twinkling we are changed, and we are gathered to meet him in the air .

We do not get raptured away until the dead in Christ are raised first.

It sounded like you were supporting some sort of post trib rapture, along with the second comming, that is what I was trying to clairify. I think I miss understood you. Yes?

I have just begun to study prophecy, but I see the rapture vs. second comming as a dispensational issue.

 

[jeffweeder]

It sounded like you were supporting some sort of post trib rapture, along with the second comming, that is what I was trying to clairify. I think I miss understood you. Yes?

no. I am post -trib. I see matt ,Mk, Lk , Peter and Paul as post trib. Jesus said after the tribulation in Matt and Luke.

Ive never understood how Jesus could preach a pre -trib rapture to his disciples, when all of them died horribly.


What do you see in luke that makes you think he is focusing on pre-trib?

 

[timlamb]

no. I am post -trib. I see matt ,Mk, Lk , Peter and Paul as post trib. Jesus said after the tribulation in Matt and Luke.

Ive never understood how Jesus could preach a pre -trib rapture to his disciples, when all of them died horribly.

What do you see in luke that makes you think he is focusing on pre-trib?

As I said, I'm just learning about reading the bible for prophecy. But in Matthew and Luke there are simular statements with Matthew continuing "and then", and Luke refering back saying "but before all this". I'm sorry but I haven't been able to find the exact scripture, I saw it on a dvd by Chuck Missler. He read it straight from scripture, maybe some one knows what scripture I am refering to, I will continue to look. I didn't want to leave this unanswered any longer.

One scripture that tells me of a rapture is Matthew 24:40, (there is a related text but I am tired and can't find anything tonight) but I don't see how this could be a post trib rapture with the saved working and sleeping along side the unsaved all around the world.

Your take?

 

[jeffweeder]

G'day Timlamb

LK

33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap;
35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.
36 "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."


MATT
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the[25][Lit just as...were the days ] coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand[26][Lit know ] until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will[27][Lit is ] be taken and one will[28][Lit is ] be left.
41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill[29][I.e. handmill]; one will[30][Lit is ] be taken and one will[31][Lit is ] be left.

MATT 13
"The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end[24][Or consummation ] of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end[25][Or consummation ] of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all[26][Or everything that is offensive ] stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let[27][Or hear! Or listen! ] him hear.


This whole pre-trib rapture is built on 1 thess 4:17.
But as i said the ressurection happens first according to this passage. It makes for us being here till the last day.
Goodluck with your studies on it-If you want to discuss this subject with me at length ,id be more than happy to tell you what i think-feel free to PM me if you like.
They might move this to eschatology otherwise...

 

[BereanTodd]

This whole pre-trib rapture is built on 1 thess 4:17.

It's built on more than that. I have no position at this time, I'm between holding a pre- and a post-trib position. I see strengths in both and don't consider myself a part of either camp.

One thing I would point out is the book of Revelation. Read it. Closely. You have the 7 churches addressed in chapters 1-3, but after that where is the church? The fact is that the church is not mentioned in any of the activities in the entire rest of the book.

Also look at 1 Thess 5:9 that says that we are not destined for wrath, and the Tribulation is all about God's wrath being poured out. Likewise Rev 3:10 talks about us being kept from the hour of testing (though it is directed specifically at the church at Philadelphia).

The end times are called the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" ... they are all about God dealing with Israel and bringing about His fulfillment for national Israel.

Some could be said about other passages I don't want to get into right now, but again, I am not solidly pre-trib ... I do see some benefit to the post-trib position. I'm just pointing out that there is much more that it is built upon than just one verse.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

G'day Timlamb

LK

33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap;
35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.
36 "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."


MATT
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the[25][Lit just as...were the days ] coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand[26][Lit know ] until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will[27][Lit is ] be taken and one will[28][Lit is ] be left.
41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill[29][I.e. handmill]; one will[30][Lit is ] be taken and one will[31][Lit is ] be left.

MATT 13
"The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end[24][Or consummation ] of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end[25][Or consummation ] of the age.41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all[26][Or everything that is offensive ] stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let[27][Or hear! Or listen! ] him hear.


This whole pre-trib rapture is built on 1 thess 4:17.
But as i said the ressurection happens first according to this passage. It makes for us being here till the last day.
Goodluck with your studies on it-If you want to discuss this subject with me at length ,id be more than happy to tell you what i think-feel free to PM me if you like.
They might move this to eschatology otherwise...

Not as I "see" it.

The oracles teach two harvests of sons of God [which is when the bodies are 'perfected' by regeneration] taken from earth to heaven, before the heavens and earth are regenerated and Adam's seed is "cut off" in the 8th day [which circumcision types].

The first harvest is typed in Pentecost, the spring harvest, the last ingathering is typed in Tabernacles, the fall harvest.

The end of this age is when the wicked are gathered out of the entire world and burned in the fire, and the Sabbath Rest begins for the thousand years.
Psalm 37 teaches about that time and it is the Messianic Kingdom when the nation of Israel will be restored as the keepers of the vineyard which God gets the fruit of "sons" from, to dwell in, in His glory.


During the Millinnial Reign the second harvest is grown, of sons of God, from the seed of the "Blessed" who enter the reign and repopulate the earth, which Blessed are both, the "Elect" [of the nation of Israel], and the sheep [taken from the Gentiles], who are "raptured" ="Laqach" and taken to the wilderness -to stand before the returned LORD on His throne of glory at the end of the great tribulation, where the "Elect" will be passed under His rod and purged, with the righteous being given salvation =eternal life in the New Covenant [they did not have it as no man could be 'born again' in Spirit during the last half of the great tribulation], but not regenerated bodies, as they, like Noah's sons, will repopulate the earth during the millennium.

Ezekiel 20:33-44 tells about that time at the end of the great tribulation -as concerns the "Elect"- as the seed of Jacob remaining alive on earth, when the angels gather all the Elect to stand before the LORD, in the wilderness -at Sinai- but not all enter into the millennial kingdom as the "Blessed of the LORD" -the rejected ones are cast into the everlasting fire at that time, alive, in their bodies.

The sheep also enter the millennial kingdom and are granted salvation by regeneration of Spirit at that time, in Christ, but also remain alive in their adamic bodies on this present earth to repopulate the earth for the millennium -grow a second harvest of sons of God for the glory of the Father to fill in the regeneration of all things.

The 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel who are taken [laqach]to the heavenly temple to be with Him always, forever, are taken [laqach] before the last half of the Great tribulation begins, and are born again in Spirit and translated in bodies: they are called the firstfruits of Israel, in Revelation, and are the first of firstfruits of the second harvest, or last ingathering, of sons of God from earth, typed in Tabernacles.

We who are born again in Spirit during this age of the Church are typed in Pentecost, the first harvest, and the first of firstfruits are already gathered and offered, and they guarantee the harvest which is coming, which is called the "fullness of the Gentiles ... come in" =gathered off earth as sons of God, taken [laqach] to glory.

All these things are taught in the living oracles, where Paul learned them from by having his understanding opened by the Holy Spirit. Paul did not bring in new doctrine but was a scribe in the biblical sense of giving the sense and opening the understanding of what is already written.
Paul is not the only one to have had his understanding opened by the Holy Spirit; anyone who seeks can find, and God hears the prayer that says "Open thou mine eyes that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy Law [=the Schoolmaster]; and many have had their eyes opened but they haven't written the letters that everyone can read -some have.

So Paul read and understood many things taught in the oracles, which are the patterns of heavenly things [eternal truths] given to Moses, as the Teacher.
Paul did not invent new doctrine even on what is called the rapture of the Church; it is a doctrine which "Wisdom hid" in the Oracles, as one of those things which have "double meanings".

God's Wisdom, written and spoken to men through men and angels, has always had "double meanings" -Before Moses, Wisdom instructed through angels and through Enoch, as even Job's miserable 'comforter' repeats for us -though he was personally unable to understand the secrets of Wisdom himself, as he demonstrates.

Job 11:6
And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that [they are] double to that which is! ..."

In the oracles the garments of priesthood represented the garments of glory which the regenerated in Spirit and body put on to enter into the temple in heaven, to stand before the LORD of glory as perfected sons of God -priests- unto Him.

The High Priest served as "Christ" taking the blood representing the final acceptable Atonement into the "Secret" =the Oracle itself, [which represented the City of God, New Jerusalem; Mount Zion of heaven] , where the glory 'dwelt' on the 'pattern of Christ's New Man body', the Mercy Seat covering of the Ark, which Ark represented the regenerated in Spirit sons of God taken from Adam and covered by the blood and made sons of God in Christ, the New Man.

But no priest was 'perfected' in body, with the true Garments of holiness and glory [New Spirit, New body] and could enter in and remain, They donned the representative holy garments to enter and took them off to depart; but we who are now "accepted in the Beloved", enter and remain, seated with Christ in the heavenly Holy of Holies, in Spirit, only at this time -before the harvest of our persons as perfected sons on His bodily image, having been made one Spirit in His Living Spirit, joined by adoption to Him.


Jesus says to watch and pray always that we may be counted worthy to escape all these things that are coming and to stand before the Son of Man: a direct reference to standing and ministering before Him in the heavenly temple as priests in garments of glory.

Leviticus 8 teaches in the oracles about donning the holy garments of glory, and the seven day feast celebrating the consecration as priests unto Him behind the closed doors of the temple in heaven
[seven days there will be seven years on earth, of the great tribulation].

Psalm 50 tells where He calls His people from heaven and earth -when He gathers them to Himself in regenerated bodies, to take them in as priests in perfected bodies while He "vindicates" His own upon the wicked on earth.

Psalm 75:2,3 tells when He gathers them in the first harvest as sons, called the "laqach', in that passage in the Hebrew original, when He takes them off earth to the temple as perfected in body sons of God =priests, before He punishes all the inhabitants of the earth by His wrath puured out.
Psalm 37 tells of the utter removal of all the wicked from off earth during that time [at His return] and of His Sabbath Reign of peace.

Numbers 10:1-7 tells how He has all His people called, to gather to Him in the air, before the door of the heavenly temple.

Isaiah 26:19-21 tells who goes first [the dead bodies are cast out of the earth of those whom He brings from heaven with Him -Psalm 50], and last [the living saints], and where they go ["Come My people, enter into they chambers and shut thy doors behind thee" -Leviticus 8] , and Isaiah 27 tells what happens on earth after they are taken away, into the hevenly temple perfected in bodies as sons of God unto Him.

The Living Oracles teach us; the Law and the prophets Witness the Way to be made sons of God: the rapture is time of the harvest of the perfected sons -taken to the "storehouse" in heaven.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[timlamb]

It's built on more than that. I have no position at this time, I'm between holding a pre- and a post-trib position. I see strengths in both and don't consider myself a part of either camp.

One thing I would point out is the book of Revelation. Read it. Closely. You have the 7 churches addressed in chapters 1-3, but after that where is the church? The fact is that the church is not mentioned in any of the activities in the entire rest of the book.

Also look at 1 Thess 5:9 that says that we are not destined for wrath, and the Tribulation is all about God's wrath being poured out. Likewise Rev 3:10 talks about us being kept from the hour of testing (though it is directed specifically at the church at Philadelphia).

The end times are called the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" ... they are all about God dealing with Israel and bringing about His fulfillment for national Israel.

Some could be said about other passages I don't want to get into right now, but again, I am not solidly pre-trib ... I do see some benefit to the post-trib position. I'm just pointing out that there is much more that it is built upon than just one verse.

Ok, I found what I was getting at. This is also why I believe this to be a dispensational topic.

Matthew, speaking as directed by the Holy Spirit, in his chapter 20, discribes the abomination, false christs, persecution, and other end time issues and in verse 29 says, "Immediately AFTER the distress of those days".

However, Luke describes many things wars and false christs, fearful events and signs from heaven, and then says in verse 12, chapter 21, "But before all this", and he goes on to discribe what appears to be the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and many things. Then in verse 36 Luke quotes Jesus as saying "pray that you will be able to escape all that is about to happen", or as the KJ says, "pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass".

These subtile differences point to a different message of the last days for the Church and Israel. The Holy Spirit knew that the Jews would not turn to this book until after the rapture, and so gave them instruction for the tribulation and second comming through Matthew. While Luke prepared us, the Church, for the rapture.

This does not diferentiate any other teaching of Jesus but this points out that Luke is most definately teaching gentiles.

I believe all this teaching to be from the same talk by Jesus but written down guided by the Holy spirit, for different audiences by different authors. for better understanding.

One other thing. Chuck Missler, who is doing the teaching on the prophecy dvd, points out that in all his recording of Jesus prophecy Luke doesn't even mention the great tribulation, most likely because those who heed his message won't be in it. Interesting!

 

[luke226]

The Father engaged the Hebrews at Mt. Sinai. The Son Engaged the 'church" at the last supper. The Father hid the Son in the whole tabernacle in the wilderness including all the vessels and the Feasts. the Son reveiled all these mysterys but most of the 'church' fail to see them because they don't read the Old testament. The scriptures say we (believers) are not appointed to wrath. Rev. 4:1 is the removal of the 'church" at the Fathers order just as the Lord said only the Father in heaven Knows the hour. This is hidden in the tradition of the jewish wedding feast that the Son must have all things ready before the wedding. This is before the opening of the seals. The removal of the 'church" will be the event to let the non-mesianic jews realize that the "one they have pierced' was and is their promised One. The Father is now removeing the scales from the hebrew's eyes as attributed by the many mesianic convertions and the aposticy entering the 'church' which is warned of earlier in Rev. The warning states of the saints wearing white robes, just as the hebrews washed their clothing in front of Mt. sinai before The Fathers engagement to them.

 

[TheScottsMen]

Hey, great conversation and fellowship going on, new people with a good word, am enjoying the posting.

Hey, why would the Paulines have such a problem with Luke. Unlike Matthew who wrote to the Jews and discussed post rapture events for their information,

I suppose the greatest reason that it fits with Matthew, Mark, and John is because it deals with the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and the focus (though not completely) on the restoration of national Israel. MAB members would also be in agreement that the four gospels due to not refer to the rapture, but to the second coming of Christ to the Mount of Olives.