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Abortion
- Thread starter Ladyberg
- Start date
MKalashnikov
No longer a member of CF. As per Romans 12:9
The abortion argument rises and falls on the personhood of the unborn.
Lets start with scientific facts.
The Unborn human being is biologically alive. It is a life. Only the most Uneducated Pro-Aborts will not admit that the Unborn are alive, it has been proven as a scientific fact.
The zygote fufills the 4 criteria needed to establish biological life, (1) Metabolism, (2) Growth, (3) reaction to stimuli, (4) reproduction. This life is HUMAN Life. the human conceptus that which results from conception and begins as a zygote is the sexual product of human parents. Hence, insofar as having human causes, the conceptus is human. not only is the conceptus human insofar as being caused by humans, it is a unique human individual, just as each of us is. Resulting from the union of the female ovum (which contains 23 chromosomes) and the male sperm (which contains 23 chromosomes), the conceptus is a new although tiny individual. It has its own unique genetic code (with forty-six chromosomes), which is neither the mother's nor the father's. From this point until death, no new genetic information is needed to make the unborn entity a unique individual human. Her (or his) genetic make-up is established at conception, determining her unique individual physical characteristics gender, eye color, bone structure, hair color, skin color, susceptibility to certain diseases, etc. That is to say, at conception, the "genotype" the inherited characteristics of a unique human being is established and will remain in force for the entire life of this individual. Although sharing the same nature with all human beings, the unborn individual, like each one of us, is unlike any that has been conceived before and unlike any that will ever be conceived again. The only thing necessary for the growth and development of this human organism (as with the rest of us) is oxygen, food, and water, since this organism like the newborn, the infant, and the adolescent needs only to develop in accordance with her already-designed nature that is present at conception.
The unborn are HUMAN. The old abortion argument that "this is not human life." is now known by scientific communities and even most abortion advocates to be false. There are still some uneducated baffoons who still hold to this premise, but they are easy enough to shut down.
It is important to realize that abortion advocates have been beaten on both of these fronts, I can list numerous sources from secular scientists and individuals that states life begins at conception. Any expert in genetics can tell you that the unborn are human. In fact you can take a newly formed zygote from a human and a chimp and any genetic expert could easily tell you which was which because the DNA identifies which is monkey life and which is human life.
Most logical abortion advocates realized that they lost on both of the above issues, they then retreated to this popular and most common argument.
"The unborn is human, and it is alive, but it is not a person until birth."
Lets examine this argument, and the popular arguments that stem from it.
A popular argument is this " The fetus is just a part of the woman's body, like her tonsils or appendix."
The problem with this is that a body part is identified by a common genetic code, the unborn's genetic code is different from its mothers.
Every cell of the mother's tonsils, appendix, heart, and lungs share the same genetic code. The unborn child also has a genetic code, distinctly different from his mothers. Every cell of his body is uniquely his, each different than every cell of his mother's body. Often his blood-type is also different, and half the time even his gender is different.
Half of the childs 46 chromosomes come from his father, half from his mother. Except in the rare cases of identical twins, the combination of those chromosomes are unique, and distinct from even a brother or sister coming from those same parents.
Just as no 2 people have identical fingerprints no 2 people have identical genetic fingerprints. If one body is inside another, but each has its own genetic code, then there is not one person, but 2 seperate people. John Jefferson Davis states:
"It is a well established fact that a genetically distinct human being is brought into existance at conception. Once fertilization takes place, the zygote is its own entity, genetically distinct from both mother and father. The newly concieved individual possesses all the necessary information for a self-directed development and will proceed to grow in the usual human fashion, given time and development. It is simply untrue that the unborn child is merely "part of the mother's body." In addition to being genetically distinct from the time of conception, the unborn possess seperate circulatory, nervous, and endocrine systems."
A chinese zygote implanted in a swedish women will always be chinese not swedish, because his identity is based on his genetic code not that of the body in which he resides. If there were only one body involved in a pregnancy then that body has 2 noses, 4 legs, 4 arms, 2 sets of fingerprints, 2 brains, 2 circulatory systems, and 2 skeletal systems. Half the time the child is male, clearly his sexual organs are not part of his mother's body, but his own. In reality, it is a scientific fact that the mother is one distinctive and self-contained person, and the child another.
A second point, the child may live and the mother may die, or the mother may live and the child die.
The child is a temporary resident of the mother. He will leave on his own as long as he is not prematurely evicited. In may cases where a mother has been fatally injured a child has been delivered without complications. The mother's body dies yet the child lives. If it were part of the mother's body it would have died with her. In California a child was born several months after his mother was declared brain dead.
Being inside of something is not the same as being part of something.
One's body does not belong to another's body because of proximity. A car is not part of a garage because it is parked there, a loaf of bread is not part of the oven because it is baked there. Louise Brown the first test-tube baby was concieved when egg and sperm were joined in a petri dish. She was no more part of her mother's body when she was implanted than she was part of the petri dish where her life began.
The other popular argument is this:
" The unborn isn't a person with meaningful life, it is only inches in size, and can't even think, it is less advanced than an animal."
Personhood is defined by membership in the human species, not by a stage of development in that species.
A living beings designation to a species is determined not by a stage of development, but by the sum total of its biological characteristics, actual and potential, which are genetically determined. If we say that the fetus is not human, a member of Homo Sapiens we must say that it is a member of another species, but this cannot be.
Dictionaries define person as a "human being", "Human individual," Or "Member of the human race." What makes a dog a dog is the fact he comes from dogs. His father was a dog, his mother was a dog. What makes a human being a person is that he comes from human persons. His father was a person and his mother was a person, he can be nothing else than a human person.
Personhood is not a matter of size, skill, or development.
Proaborts often argue that a child aborted in the first trimester may be less than an inch or 2 in size, or less than an ounce or 2 in weight. But what measure of personhood is size? Is an NBA Player more of a person than someone half his size? If a 200 lb man loses 50lbs did he lose 1/4 of his personhood? Scales and rulers are no measure of human worth.
Joseph Fletcher maintains that an individual is not a person unless he has an IQ of 40. British anthropolgist Ashely Monatague says no one becomes a person until they are molded by social and cultural influences. By this he means that more intelligent or educated people (like himself.) are more human that the inferior elements of society, (Like the rest of us.) This is a fatal flaw in liberal thinking.
If personhood is determined by one's current capacities, then someone who is unconscious or sick could be killed immediatly because he is not demonstrating superior intellect and skills. "But give a man time and he'll be able to function like a person." Give a baby time and so will they.
Age, Size, IQ or stage of development are simply differences in degree, not kind. Our Kind is humanity. We are people, human beings. We Possess certain skills to differing degrees at different stages of development. When we reach maturation there are many different degrees of skills and levels of IQ. But none of these make some people better or more human than others. None make some qualified to live and others unqualified.
The unborn's status should be determined on an objective basis, not a subjective or self-serving definitions of personhood.
Artifical distinctions have been made by pro-abortion advocates to differntiate between humans and persons. Part of the reason for this was the scientific fact that life begins at conception paints the pro-abort movement into a corner. The old and still popular argument "this isn't human life." is now known by most pro-aborts to be erroneous. They realize that it is only a matter of time before the public (sheeple) learn the truth. The newer position is "Ok it is a life, but it is not a person." Once someone is committed to the pro-abort position, rather than abandon it in the light of scientific fact, they tend to come up with another line of defense.
We must not reduce issues of life and death and basic human rights to a sematic game in which we are free to redefine our terms. Changing the meaning of words does not change fact. The concept of personhood is now virtually worthless as an ethical guide in the matter of abortion.
The only objective questions we can ask are:
1. "Is it Human ,that is, did it come from human beings?"
2. "Is it a gentically unique individual?"
3. "Is it alive and growing."
If the answers are yes, then "it" is a "he" or "she" a living person worthy of protection.
Lets start with scientific facts.
The Unborn human being is biologically alive. It is a life. Only the most Uneducated Pro-Aborts will not admit that the Unborn are alive, it has been proven as a scientific fact.
The zygote fufills the 4 criteria needed to establish biological life, (1) Metabolism, (2) Growth, (3) reaction to stimuli, (4) reproduction. This life is HUMAN Life. the human conceptus that which results from conception and begins as a zygote is the sexual product of human parents. Hence, insofar as having human causes, the conceptus is human. not only is the conceptus human insofar as being caused by humans, it is a unique human individual, just as each of us is. Resulting from the union of the female ovum (which contains 23 chromosomes) and the male sperm (which contains 23 chromosomes), the conceptus is a new although tiny individual. It has its own unique genetic code (with forty-six chromosomes), which is neither the mother's nor the father's. From this point until death, no new genetic information is needed to make the unborn entity a unique individual human. Her (or his) genetic make-up is established at conception, determining her unique individual physical characteristics gender, eye color, bone structure, hair color, skin color, susceptibility to certain diseases, etc. That is to say, at conception, the "genotype" the inherited characteristics of a unique human being is established and will remain in force for the entire life of this individual. Although sharing the same nature with all human beings, the unborn individual, like each one of us, is unlike any that has been conceived before and unlike any that will ever be conceived again. The only thing necessary for the growth and development of this human organism (as with the rest of us) is oxygen, food, and water, since this organism like the newborn, the infant, and the adolescent needs only to develop in accordance with her already-designed nature that is present at conception.
The unborn are HUMAN. The old abortion argument that "this is not human life." is now known by scientific communities and even most abortion advocates to be false. There are still some uneducated baffoons who still hold to this premise, but they are easy enough to shut down.
It is important to realize that abortion advocates have been beaten on both of these fronts, I can list numerous sources from secular scientists and individuals that states life begins at conception. Any expert in genetics can tell you that the unborn are human. In fact you can take a newly formed zygote from a human and a chimp and any genetic expert could easily tell you which was which because the DNA identifies which is monkey life and which is human life.
Most logical abortion advocates realized that they lost on both of the above issues, they then retreated to this popular and most common argument.
"The unborn is human, and it is alive, but it is not a person until birth."
Lets examine this argument, and the popular arguments that stem from it.
A popular argument is this " The fetus is just a part of the woman's body, like her tonsils or appendix."
The problem with this is that a body part is identified by a common genetic code, the unborn's genetic code is different from its mothers.
Every cell of the mother's tonsils, appendix, heart, and lungs share the same genetic code. The unborn child also has a genetic code, distinctly different from his mothers. Every cell of his body is uniquely his, each different than every cell of his mother's body. Often his blood-type is also different, and half the time even his gender is different.
Half of the childs 46 chromosomes come from his father, half from his mother. Except in the rare cases of identical twins, the combination of those chromosomes are unique, and distinct from even a brother or sister coming from those same parents.
Just as no 2 people have identical fingerprints no 2 people have identical genetic fingerprints. If one body is inside another, but each has its own genetic code, then there is not one person, but 2 seperate people. John Jefferson Davis states:
"It is a well established fact that a genetically distinct human being is brought into existance at conception. Once fertilization takes place, the zygote is its own entity, genetically distinct from both mother and father. The newly concieved individual possesses all the necessary information for a self-directed development and will proceed to grow in the usual human fashion, given time and development. It is simply untrue that the unborn child is merely "part of the mother's body." In addition to being genetically distinct from the time of conception, the unborn possess seperate circulatory, nervous, and endocrine systems."
A chinese zygote implanted in a swedish women will always be chinese not swedish, because his identity is based on his genetic code not that of the body in which he resides. If there were only one body involved in a pregnancy then that body has 2 noses, 4 legs, 4 arms, 2 sets of fingerprints, 2 brains, 2 circulatory systems, and 2 skeletal systems. Half the time the child is male, clearly his sexual organs are not part of his mother's body, but his own. In reality, it is a scientific fact that the mother is one distinctive and self-contained person, and the child another.
A second point, the child may live and the mother may die, or the mother may live and the child die.
The child is a temporary resident of the mother. He will leave on his own as long as he is not prematurely evicited. In may cases where a mother has been fatally injured a child has been delivered without complications. The mother's body dies yet the child lives. If it were part of the mother's body it would have died with her. In California a child was born several months after his mother was declared brain dead.
Being inside of something is not the same as being part of something.
One's body does not belong to another's body because of proximity. A car is not part of a garage because it is parked there, a loaf of bread is not part of the oven because it is baked there. Louise Brown the first test-tube baby was concieved when egg and sperm were joined in a petri dish. She was no more part of her mother's body when she was implanted than she was part of the petri dish where her life began.
The other popular argument is this:
" The unborn isn't a person with meaningful life, it is only inches in size, and can't even think, it is less advanced than an animal."
Personhood is defined by membership in the human species, not by a stage of development in that species.
A living beings designation to a species is determined not by a stage of development, but by the sum total of its biological characteristics, actual and potential, which are genetically determined. If we say that the fetus is not human, a member of Homo Sapiens we must say that it is a member of another species, but this cannot be.
Dictionaries define person as a "human being", "Human individual," Or "Member of the human race." What makes a dog a dog is the fact he comes from dogs. His father was a dog, his mother was a dog. What makes a human being a person is that he comes from human persons. His father was a person and his mother was a person, he can be nothing else than a human person.
Personhood is not a matter of size, skill, or development.
Proaborts often argue that a child aborted in the first trimester may be less than an inch or 2 in size, or less than an ounce or 2 in weight. But what measure of personhood is size? Is an NBA Player more of a person than someone half his size? If a 200 lb man loses 50lbs did he lose 1/4 of his personhood? Scales and rulers are no measure of human worth.
Joseph Fletcher maintains that an individual is not a person unless he has an IQ of 40. British anthropolgist Ashely Monatague says no one becomes a person until they are molded by social and cultural influences. By this he means that more intelligent or educated people (like himself.) are more human that the inferior elements of society, (Like the rest of us.) This is a fatal flaw in liberal thinking.
If personhood is determined by one's current capacities, then someone who is unconscious or sick could be killed immediatly because he is not demonstrating superior intellect and skills. "But give a man time and he'll be able to function like a person." Give a baby time and so will they.
Age, Size, IQ or stage of development are simply differences in degree, not kind. Our Kind is humanity. We are people, human beings. We Possess certain skills to differing degrees at different stages of development. When we reach maturation there are many different degrees of skills and levels of IQ. But none of these make some people better or more human than others. None make some qualified to live and others unqualified.
The unborn's status should be determined on an objective basis, not a subjective or self-serving definitions of personhood.
Artifical distinctions have been made by pro-abortion advocates to differntiate between humans and persons. Part of the reason for this was the scientific fact that life begins at conception paints the pro-abort movement into a corner. The old and still popular argument "this isn't human life." is now known by most pro-aborts to be erroneous. They realize that it is only a matter of time before the public (sheeple) learn the truth. The newer position is "Ok it is a life, but it is not a person." Once someone is committed to the pro-abort position, rather than abandon it in the light of scientific fact, they tend to come up with another line of defense.
We must not reduce issues of life and death and basic human rights to a sematic game in which we are free to redefine our terms. Changing the meaning of words does not change fact. The concept of personhood is now virtually worthless as an ethical guide in the matter of abortion.
The only objective questions we can ask are:
1. "Is it Human ,that is, did it come from human beings?"
2. "Is it a gentically unique individual?"
3. "Is it alive and growing."
If the answers are yes, then "it" is a "he" or "she" a living person worthy of protection.
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wvernon
Senior Member
You missed my favorite reason at all...I heard this pro-abortion reason on www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm
Paraphrasing,
No person has the right to live inside anyone else. A fetus may only live inside a woman with her permission until the woman decides to revoke that permission and abort the child.
Sick, isn't it.
Paraphrasing,
No person has the right to live inside anyone else. A fetus may only live inside a woman with her permission until the woman decides to revoke that permission and abort the child.
Sick, isn't it.
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D
dumb american
Guest
The respect for the sacredness of life should extend far beyound common human behavior, and abortion is one aspect of that behavior. However much is made about preserving life, while the preservation of quality of life is neglected. In an overpopulated world, where selfishness limits the sharing of resources, and orphans and unwanted children often lead less productive lives, a way must be found to truly integrate such children into society so they experience the healthy bonds of parenting, and complete acceptance of society. In truth, Illegitamite children(children without legal fathers) and orphans face stigmas and persecution in the world that can make the individual life hell. The argument to protect life and hold it sacred must also extend to all living beings, and include the issue of persecuton by the state, and war. Perhaps abortion is in one sense easier to tackle, since pregnant mothers are easier to control. More preventive measures must be met taken towards teenage pregnancy, and the sensitivity of rape victims must be taken into account. The failure of families and society to provide enough love and protection towards women to prevent unwanted children inthe first place must be adressed. The economic cost of raising a child in the modern world must be adressed, as well as the stress of overpopulation, and the effect of such stress on human nature.
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Clem is Me
Well-Known Member
My feelings about abortion are that I wish no woman would ever choose one, that society cared as much for children as it pretends it does and that the government never needed to create laws to restrict society's lusts. I am saddened that none of these things is true, but glad at least that the government has tried to keep people out of each other's lives in this regard.Ladyberg said:
Human life begins when a baby is born. Potential human life begins a lot earlier. One needs to be more precious than the other because there is another party involved before the child is born, and that party can and will do what it feels it must, regardless.
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Natman
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I follow with dittomonkey911's logic and therefore unequivically state that...Ladyberg said:
Human life begins at conception and that Abortion is therefore murder of an innocent human being.
Son-cerely,
Nate
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Seeking...
A strange kettle of fish ...
Actually - this is at the core of some of my beliefs. I will not support taking away a woman's authority over her own body - whether or not someone else is inside.wvernon said:
Aside from that, I think abortion is a neccesary evil. Life begins at conception, human life begins when the fetus is viable.
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Seeking...
A strange kettle of fish ...
Abortion is the taking/ending of a life, which I generally believe to be wrong. I believe that the taking/ending of life in this manner is sometimes neccesary. That's it.Ladyberg said:
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Ave Maria
Ave Maria Gratia Plena
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I agree. I also will not support taking away a woman's authority over her own body regardless of whether a fetus is inside or not. A fetus is not a person. It is a potential person. It does not have rights.Seeking... said:
I do not condone or condemn abortion or anyone who chooses to have one. I leave that decision up to the individual. I generally agree with the United Methodist Church's position on abortion.
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C
chessterbester
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I am prochoice. I believe that abortion is a matter between a woman (and her partner, if applicable) and her doctor. It doesn't involve anyone else. A woman should be able to choose an abortion without the government asking if it is a valid reason, after all the sooner it occurs in the pregnancy the less pain for the child. I believe that life begins at conception, in a biological sense. Just as bacteria is alive. The difference is potential for human life. I do not think that the religious convictions of a group should ever effect the whole of a people. I guess what I'm trying to say, is if you or your partner get pregnant, and there are complications (the mothers health, birth defects), and you think abortion is wrong, don't consider it, don't get one. Having health concerns, which are personally the only thing that would make abortion an option, I would never want this choice taken from me.
I agree for the most part with what Holly has said
I agree for the most part with what Holly has said
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Not only that, but the few states that adopted legal abortion 5 years before roe v. wade experienced crime drops 5 years earlier than the rest of the country. Hmmm....billwald said:
So as you might suspect I support abortion.
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Ave Maria
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And this has what to do with abortion?aimejl said:
Just because child abuse has risen since abortion has been legalized doesn't mean that the legalization of abortion caused the rate of child abuse to increase. It might be totally unrelated.
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aimejl
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http://www.mikerock.com/facts_abortion.html
Child Abuse Has Increased Over 600% Since Abortions Legalization in 1973.
Child Abuse Has Increased Over 600% Since Abortions Legalization in 1973.
- Legalizing abortion was supposed to help reduce child abuse, since it was assumed most abused children were unwanted at birth. But this theory has been disproved by scientific studies as well as by the obvious evidence that child abuse has sharply increased since abortion became legal.
- Rather than helping stop child abuse, legal abortion has actually contributed to its sharp rise due to effects abortion has on womens self esteem and ability to deal with stress-two important factors which cause child abuse.
- Cites Dr. Philip Ney in a widely read study on the connection between abortion and child abuse: " elective abortion is an important cause of child abuse."
- "Recent evidence indicates many women harbor strong guilt feelings long after their abortions. Guilt is one important cause of child battering and infanticide. Abortion also lowers womens self-esteem and there are studies reporting a major loss of self-esteem in battering parents "
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