Abortion question?

[Lion King]

Woman dies after abortion request 'refused' at Galway hospital

The husband of a pregnant woman who died in an Irish hospital has said he has no doubt she would be alive if she had been allowed an abortion.

Savita Halappanavar's family said she asked several times for her pregnancy to be terminated because she had severe back pain and was miscarrying.

Her husband told the BBC that it was refused because there was a foetal heartbeat.

Ms Halappanavar's death, on 28 October, is the subject of two investigations.......

......He said she continued to experience pain and asked a consultant if she could be induced.

"They said unfortunately she can't because it's a Catholic country," Mr Halappanavar said.

"Savita said to her she is not Catholic, she is Hindu, and why impose the law on her.

"But she said 'I'm sorry, unfortunately it's a Catholic country' and it's the law that they can't abort when the foetus is live."


You can read the rest of the story here: BBC News - Woman dies after abortion request 'refused' at Galway hospital



Now, according to the word of God, did the hospital staff make the right choice in refusing this woman an abortion?

EDIT: To the pro-life, what would you have done in this situation?

 

[sonshine234]

Would they have made the right choice by murdering the baby?

 

[Gnarwhal]

Lord have mercy.

Unfortunately, this can't truly be addressed directly by Scripture. Both sides of this issue can copy and paste passages that allude to a position of either pro- or anti-. I would think though, that if lives would be lost, that the Lord would hope for as few as possible. In this case, we lost two instead of one.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I wonder if "inducing" the baby would have been a better alternative? Given they would not be trying to "murder" the baby but "inducing" to save the mother while also trusting God (allowing for His permissive will here) in whether He would have the baby live. Afterall inducing isnt aborting, I was induced after the baby was a month overdue. However, I do realize inducing too early could be risky to the baby (while saving the mother) in the hopes the baby would survive. Doing nothing took them both.

But then again, someone could say that too could be God's will.

Without hesitation they might induce on a pregrancy that has gone overterm to save the mother (being somewhat confident the baby will survive). However, Im not quite sure a flat out "no" to doing the same with an undertermed mother expresses much faith in God to make it possible that the child survive along with the mother. Not sure really, both are dead now, she (at least cried for help) but again, you can chalk it up to God's will too. So who is to say. One might just seem more compassionate given the mother needed help and inducing seemed to be the option she would have taken.

Things like this make you think, good question, cant say for sure I know how to answer it myself.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

For every one questionable case, there are a million cases of aborted babies for no reason at all.

 

[Yarddog]

Now, according to the word of God, did the hospital staff make the right choice in refusing this woman an abortion?

What does scripture say about abortions on demand? Beyond any doubt, the hospital should have treated her but your story or others which I have found don't know exactly what did occur. It is under investigation.

Abortion is illegal in the Republic of Ireland "unless it is necessary to save the live of the mother" so she could have been given an abortion if it was deemed necessary by the hospital.

Reports says that she was told that she was miscarrying the fetus which is in itself, an abortion.

In this case, it is said that the woman died of septicaemia, which is a severe blood infection which can be caused by several things. They do not know if the infection was caused by the miscarriage or the miscarriage was caused by the infection. She was complaining about a severe pain in the back which doctors say could have been from kidney disease or stones.

It is rare for a woman to die from septicaemia in the UK but it occurs every year.

 

[Lion King]

For every one questionable case, there are a million cases of aborted babies for no reason at all.

Would they have made the right choice by murdering the baby?

What does scripture say about abortions on demand? Beyond any doubt, the hospital should have treated her but your story or others which I have found don't know exactly what did occur. It is under investigation.

Abortion is illegal in the Republic of Ireland "unless it is necessary to save the live of the mother" so she could have been given an abortion if it was deemed necessary by the hospital.

Reports says that she was told that she was miscarrying the fetus which is in itself, an abortion.

In this case, it is said that the woman died of septicaemia, which is a severe blood infection which can be caused by several things. They do not know if the infection was caused by the miscarriage or the miscarriage was caused by the infection. She was complaining about a severe pain in the back which doctors say could have been from kidney disease or stones.

It is rare for a woman to die from septicaemia in the UK but it occurs every year.

I take it you guys are pro-life?

Now, what laws do you want to see put in place? Do you think abortion should be made illegal in all circumstances, or are they certain situations where you are willing to allow it (like this case for example)?

 

[Trogool]

Would they have made the right choice by murdering the baby?

Yes

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[Trogool]

I am totally with the bereaved husband here. What the hospital did here was monstrous. They allowed a woman to die by needlessly prolonging a miscarriage. I personally hope a criminal investigation will see justice done and closure brought to the poor man and his family.

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[Yarddog]

I take it you guys are pro-life?

Now, what laws do you want to see put in place? Do you think abortion should be made illegal in all circumstances, or are they certain situations where you are willing to allow it (like this case for example)?

I think that if the woman's life is in certain jeopardy, that an abortion can be allowed. There is one life which is always innocent and that is the baby's.

 

[VictoriasImage77]

This is why in America we try to separate church and state. I personally believe abortion is a terribly sad thing and something to be avoided at all costs. But I see that I cannot make that choice for someone else. Just as medical staff here cannot make life-saving decisions, or end of life decisions, unless the patient is incapacitated and there is no advocate. Everyone has free will, and I believe everyone has the right to do the "wrong" thing. The hospital made the decision for her, and so it is those at the hospital that must answer for a wrongful death, instead of the woman answering to God for the death of her child. Now the world has lost two souls because a state imposed its morality on the citizen. They weren't looking after her best interest..or the baby's for that matter.

I understand this might be an unpopular viewpoint, especially for a Catholic, but each person was given the free will to decide these things for themselves. If you chose your life over someone else's, that can be somewhat likened to self-defense in a way.

I also understand that this case is in the minority..I've been to the inside of planned parenthood and have seen the nature of most abortions. Life-saving abortions are rare, but they do happen. I understand this husband's anger.

 

[Lion King]

I feel that if this case was handled in a better way, at least one soul would have been alive right now. Unfortunately now, both are dead. Such a tragedy.

Mrs Halappanavar's parents did bring up an interesting point to this discussion:

'In an attempt to save a four-month-old foetus they killed my 30-year-old daughter. How is that fair you tell me?

'How many more cases will there be? The rules should be changed as per the requirement of Hindus. We are Hindus, not Christians,'


Should we, as Christians, impose our morals and values upon others? Are we not becoming like Islam? Let's ask ourselves this question; would anyone here be happy being forced to live under Islam/Hindu etc laws?

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7:12

 

[Yarddog]

Ireland to clarify abortion rules after woman's death | Reuters

(Reuters) - Ireland's government pledged on Thursday to clarify its abortion laws after an Indian woman who was refused a termination died from blood poisoning in an Irish hospital.
Thousands took to the streets to protest on Wednesday after news broke of the death of Savita Halappanavar of septicemia following a miscarriage 17 weeks into her pregnancy.
Activists in the overwhelmingly Roman Catholic country, which has some of the world's most restrictive laws on abortion, say the refusal by doctors to terminate the pregnancy earlier may have contributed to her death.
"I was deeply disturbed yesterday by what Savita's husband said. I don't think as a country we should allow a situation where women's rights are put at risk in this way," Deputy Prime Minister Eamon Gilmore told parliament on Thursday.
"There is no question of equivocation. We need to bring legal clarity to this issue and that is what we are going to do."
Irish law does not specify under what circumstances the threat to the life or health of the mother is high enough to justify a termination, leaving doctors to decide. Critics say this means doctors' personal beliefs can play a role.
Halappanavar was admitted to hospital in severe pain on October 21 and asked for a termination after doctors told her the baby would not survive, according to her husband Praveen.
The foetus was surgically removed when its heartbeat stopped days later, but her family believes the delay contributed to the blood poisoning that killed Halappanavar on October 28.
Praveen said he would wait for the results of an investigation before deciding whether to sue, but that Ireland's Roman Catholic tradition appeared to have been a factor in the decision to deny a termination.
"I am still in shock. It is hard to believe that religion can mean somebody's life," Praveen Halappanavar told Reuters. He said he planned to return to Ireland from India, where he traveled with his wife's body.
The Irish health authority (HSE) has launched an inquiry which the health minister said must "stand up to the scrutiny of the world." Irish media said Praveen would be interviewed.
The Indian couple were resident and working in Ireland, he as an engineer and she as a dentist.
POLITICAL STORM
Despite a dramatic waning of the influence of the Catholic Church, which dominated politics in Ireland until the 1980s, successive governments have been loath to legislate on an issue they fear could alienate conservative voters.
Fine Gael, the senior partner in Ireland's ruling coalition, told supporters before a recent election that it would not introduce new laws allowing abortion during its five-year term, despite pressure from its junior partner Labour to act.
The government said it had received long-delayed recommendations from an expert panel on introducing new rules on abortion, and would report before the end of the month.
Four out of five Irish voters support a change in the law to permit abortion in cases where a mother's life is at risk, according to a recent opinion poll.
But a vocal anti-abortion minority has dominated the debate on abortion in Ireland in the past, with campaigners arguing that the adoption of legislation or guidelines for medical terminations would bring in abortion through the back door.
In 1992, when challenged in the "X-case" involving a 14-year-old rape victim, the Supreme Court ruled that abortion was permitted when the woman's life was at risk, including from suicide. A European Court of Human Rights in 2010 ruled that Ireland must clarify what this means in practice.
"This is exactly what the (European) court was complaining about ... The court has not said Ireland must or must not have abortion, they said they have to clarify circumstances," said Ronan McCrea, a barrister and lecturer in law at University College London.
"The vagueness ... gives excessive scope to doctors to follow their own personal views or it means even if they want to give the treatment, they'll fall foul of the law," he said.
Halappanavar's death has dominated debate in Ireland's parliament since news of it broke on Wednesday. Her photograph was spread across front pages of all Ireland's major newspapers on Thursday, while editorials demanded action from politicians.
The fact that she is a foreign national has heightened the government's embarrassment. The story was on the front of several large Indian newspapers and family members were featured on national television.
The Indian government said on Thursday it deeply regretted Halappanavar's death. "The death of an Indian national in such circumstances is a matter of concern," a spokesman said.
(Additional reporting by Ross Colvin in Delhi; Editing by Mark Heinrich)

 

[Lion King]

I think that if the woman's life is in certain jeopardy, that an abortion can be allowed. There is one life which is always innocent and that is the baby's.

"There is no question of equivocation. We need to bring legal clarity to this issue and that is what we are going to do."

Irish law does not specify under what circumstances the threat to the life or health of the mother is high enough to justify a termination, leaving doctors to decide. Critics say this means doctors' personal beliefs can play a role.

There will always be a problem with your proposed solution Yarddog...

 

[Yarddog]

I feel that if this case was handled in a better way, at least one soul would have been alive right now.

Maybe, but an investigation will tell us more.

Unfortunately now, both are dead. Such a tragedy.

Agreed.

Should we, as Christians, impose our morals and values upon others?

In a Christian country, yes, as long as they are really Christian values and not values of those who consider themselves Christian yet don't love as Jesus called us to love.

Are we not becoming like Islam?

In what way? How many Christian countries condemn people to death for teaching their faith to Christians?

Islamic nations have laws which Christians must obey, regardless of what we believe. The Hindu family had resided in Ireland for 4 years and they should have known the laws and sought to obey them.

Let's ask ourselves this question; would anyone here be happy being forced to live under Islam/Hindu etc laws?

No, but the Halappanavars were not forced to live under the laws of Ireland. They chose to live under them when they moved there and set up residence.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Should we, as Christians, impose our morals and values upon others? Are we not becoming like Islam? Let's ask ourselves this question; would anyone here be happy being forced to live under Islam/Hindu etc laws?

My stance for a while now has been that we don't have the right to demand non-Christians abide by our morals and values. The essence of Christianity is that it's an invitation to engage and partake, God never forced his will on others so my question is who thinks we have the right to do that when the One who created the cosmos doesn't?

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[Lion King]

Maybe, but an investigation will tell us more.

Agreed.

In a Christian country, yes, as long as they are really Christian values and not values of those who consider themselves Christian yet don't love as Jesus called us to love.

In a Christian country? Which country on earth is truly a Christian country?

By the way, since you seek to outlaw abortion because it against God's word, why stop there?

Why not seek to outlaw adultery, sex before marriage, other religions etc, since these things are also against the LORD's word? Why not seek to ban everything that goes against God's word?

In what way? How many Christian countries condemn people to death for teaching their faith to Christians?

Islamic nations have laws which Christians must obey, regardless of what we believe. The Hindu family had resided in Ireland for 4 years and they should have known the laws and sought to obey them.

You really don't see it, do you? This family was denied a potential life saving procedure (abortion) on religious grounds. How is that any different from Iran which outlaws Christianity simply because it goes against the beliefs of the state (Islam)?

Did Christ coerce people into believing in Him? Did Christ force Israel into following the commandments of God?

No, but the Halappanavars were not forced to live under the laws of Ireland. They chose to live under them when they moved there and set up residence.

Yes, I understand that, but how does that excuse the tragedy that's just happened here?

 

[Lion King]

My stance for a while now has been that we don't have the right to demand non-Christians abide by our morals and values. The essence of Christianity is that it's an invitation to engage and partake, God never forced his will on others so my question is who thinks we have the right to do that when the One who created the cosmos doesn't?

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My thoughts exactly.

 

[Albion]

I am totally with the bereaved husband here. What the hospital did here was monstrous.

Well, that's what you get when the government takes over health care. Get ready; it's about to happen here.

 

[Albion]

My stance for a while now has been that we don't have the right to demand non-Christians abide by our morals and values.

So, 'honor killings' and the rape of women who are not covered up would be fine with you, so long as they're carried out by the members of another religion? They are fine with members of that religion and culture, and that's what you are using as your yardstick.