Abortion and politics?

johneb said:

What would the creator have to say to a nation that slaughters a million unborn babies every year?

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What would God say about the numerous other evils our nation commits every day, which have expanded monumentally during the Trump administration?

johneb said:

What would the creator have to say to a nation that slaughters a million unborn babies every year?

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You noticed, I assume, that the very first reply to your question was not an answer to the question but an attempt instead to change the subject.

What would God say about the numerous other evils our nation commits every day, which have expanded monumentally during the Trump administration?

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No, it was an attempt to show that a tree exists in a forest. What's more, they are part of an ecosystem.

Poverty, hunger and homelessness affect the ecosystem. Lack of healthcare and poor education. Our treatment of immigrants. The unequal status of women that RBG fought so hard to change.

Abortion is just one tree in the ecosystem. You can't address one problem while exacerbating others.

johneb said:

Are there any christians out there that vote for politicians that support abortion? How do you justify this?

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Hi john,

For me, I'm not even particularly concerned with one's personal position of abortion. I believe it to be sin in God's sight and I believe that, for believers, there should never, or certainly very, very rarely be a need for such a procedure. A believer, who is living out the Lord's commands, should only find themselves pregnant in the bond of marriage. So, I really don't find the abortion issue to be a hot button issue within the believing community.

However, neither this nation or any other nation on the face of the earth is comprised of only God fearing and believing people. Therefore, the laws of the various countries aren't likely to be in line with God's laws. Not even Israel was able to maintain loyalty to God, as a nation.

So, how a particular politician personally feels about abortion really doesn't come into play in my decision as to who I should vote for as the best person for the job. Abortions have been made legal by the law of the land and that has never been any president's area of authority or responsibility. We can, and I'm sure have had, presidents who were personally against abortion...yet abortion is still legal. So, why would I even think to imagine, that by choosing someone who has come out against abortion in their own personal belief system, that's going to cause some drastic change in the law of the land.

I think it's quite obvious that there are lawmakers who are personally against abortion. That hasn't changed the law of the land. This country is made up of a majority of lost and dying people and we as believers have to live within the establishment of parameters made by that majority of our nation. Where I stand today, I am personally against abortion for myself or anyone that I might have influence over, but it's a personal choice and I think it's a proven fact that lost people do lost things.

Me, I'm for proclaiming the truth of who Jesus is and who God is and following the plan that Jesus laid out for us. First, go and teach them the gospel. Then, for those who will believe, teach them to obey all that I have commanded. Jesus neither spoke nor exampled for his followers that they should expend some effort to bring the lost under the law of God through condemnation of their sin. To me, that's the problem in all of this. There are people aligned with the christian faith that somehow feel that they are doing God's bidding by condemning the lost for their sin. As I understand the Scriptures, that's the job of the Holy Spirit...once someone has agreed to the truth of God.

Jesus lived in Israel while it was under the authority of the Roman government. However, we find not one single example where Jesus taught or encouraged his followers to go out and set all the Romans straight with God's law. Never once did he speak of there needing to be some effort made to go against the Roman government. I believe that he understood that living a life for God was not a national effort, but a personal effort. An effort made only by those who have chosen to live a life that honors God. That isn't the lost and the dying, but the believers. Jesus taught that we must live among the lost, but that we personally shouldn't act or be like them. That's my position on abortion. Abortion is legal and it's ok that the nation makes it legal. Someone having or not having an abortion is not going to save them on the day of God's judgment. Only their personal faith in Jesus will do that.

But, for the believer who must live in this lost world, the need for an abortion should honestly never come up. That person is going to understand that the child in the womb is a gift of God to them as God fearing and loving parents. For the unbeliever, there are myriad ungodly reasons that a man and woman may find themselves considering an abortion. But that's the world we live in; the world that Jesus lived in. His command was that we not live as they live. I try not to, despite what the law of the land may say. I don't gamble either, but I know that there are many places around our nation where it is legal and greatly accepted.

God bless,
Ted

jgarden said:

ProLife supporters just don't get it - international studies around the world have shown that making abortion illegal doesn't impact the rate!

In the 21stC, young American women are not about to allow a group of wealthy, old, predominantly "white" politicians in Washington who know nothing of their of the most circumstances, impose their conservative moral standards and influence one of the most personal decisions in a woman's life!

I also don't see America's legal system having much enthusiasm when it comes to incarcerating millions of young women who would openly defy the law - given that the majority of Americans currently support a woman's right to choose, just how would governments enforce an unpopular law!

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Yes. Too often the current popular 'pro life' political position seems to merely be to try to make some laws, as if to force people to do right by making laws.

As if to prevent casual sex and so on just by self-righteously making secular laws through political means.

But, a Christian viewpoint in contrast is that individuals begin to do right things that are more good/lasting if they turn to Christ in repentance and faith!

In other words, the key, real, authentic 'pro life' activity is to tell others the Good News of Jesus Christ -- the gospel!

Another authentic 'pro life' activity is to help those in need so as to save lives. Such as unwed pregnant women -- to support them, so that they can keep their pregnancies instead of driving to Canada or Mexico in fear and terminating them.

Halbhh said:

Yes. Too often the current popular 'pro life' political position seems to merely be to try to make some laws, as if to force people to do right by making laws.

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Exactly as our laws against murder, breaking and entering, speeding, and mail fraud function. Do you not think that there would be more of all of these if there were no laws against such actions?

In other words, the key, real, authentic 'pro life' activity is to tell others the Good News of Jesus Christ -- the gospel!

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What's the reason we cannot do both?

Halbhh said:

Another authentic 'pro life' activity is to help those in need so as to save lives. Such as unwed pregnant women -- to support them, so that they can keep their pregnancies instead of driving to Canada or Mexico in fear and terminating them.

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And that is indeed being done by church-related organizations all across the country. But remember that the government has many more resources with which to provide such help.

Albion said:

Exactly as our laws against murder, breaking and entering, speeding, and mail fraud function. Do you not think that there would be more of all of these if there were no laws against such actions?


What's the reason we cannot do both?



And that is indeed being done by church-related organizations all across the country. But remember that the government has many more resources with which to provide such help.

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We agree on those things.

Yet, despite laws against murder in the U.S., and capital punishment to deter murder....still, nevertheless, the murder rate in the U.S. has been higher than other nations that didn't have even our level of punishment.

Consider -- when a person feels (emotion, sensation) a fear (anxiety, nervousness, increasing...) or such, then as you know that feeling will overcome typically their reluctance to break a law, or more often simply to circumvent it.

Needless to say, for women that are afraid of a pregnancy and want to end it, they won't stop merely because there is a law that makes it harder. They will simply find another way (such as an illegal pill or merely travel to another nearby country, etc.).

If a person really wants to make a pro life difference, then of course they must help others, both with the gospel good news, and with practical support, and these are far more important than any secular law. I mean that if someone, you or anyone else want to claim they are 'pro life' they need to be doing these key things, and not substituting mere political advocacy of a governmental law that won't do much except make them think they did something.

Halbhh said:

We agree on those things.

Consider -- when a person feels (emotion, sensation) a fear (anxiety, nervousness, increasing...) or such, then as you know that feeling will overcome typically their reluctance to break a law, or more often simply to circumvent it.

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All right. And in so doing, the innocent are protected (or better protected) against the aggressors in society. The laws I referred to earlier are not meant to reform human nature so much as to protect would-be victims.

Needless to say, for women that are afraid of a pregnancy and want to end it, they won't stop merely because there is a law that makes it harder. They will simply find another way (such as an illegal pill or merely travel to another nearby country, etc.).

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Perhaps, but consider...that argument could be used against almost any potential crime.

If it is harder to pull off a fraudulent stock market scheme because of the government's regulations about transparency, reporting, filing of tax forms, audits, and so on, the result is less fraudulent stock trading. This doesn't mean that some criminal actions won't succeed, but it reduces the number.

If a person really wants to make a pro life difference, then of course they must help others, both with the gospel good news, and with practical support, and these are far more important than any secular law. I mean that if someone, you or anyone else want to claim they are 'pro life' they need to be doing these key things, and not substituting mere political advocacy of a governmental law that won't do much except make them think they did something.

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Yes. That's fair. However, it does not mean that abortion on demand ought to be the law of the land if too many concerned Christian pro-lifers fail to do what you're describing. The morality or immorality of killing still underlies the entire issue.

johneb said:

Some of us believe in the creator that the USA was founded on. And those that are in their mother's womb have the same rights as those outside the womb. What would the creator have to say to a nation that slaughters a million unborn babies every year?

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It is biologically impossible for any unborn human life to do more than grow and develop inside the womb during the first trimester, when most abortions occur. They cannot think, perceive, or communicate. They cannot have any legal rights before birth because the U.S. Constitution says so. And if you know the word baby means a born human being under one year old, calling any unborn human life a baby is ridiculous.