A woman's body - how much control?

[Estefana]

Before I start. I am not just wondering about the Church viewpoint here, I am also wondering about the Lawand what laws should/n't be made in various situations.

We were discussing at school today how much control a woman should be allowed to have over her body in the eyes of the law. (You have to love how God is basically a forbidden word at schools these days) and was wondering what you guys think.

Now I know that we are all against Abortion (except possibly in the cases of Mother or Baby's life in danger or Rape) but what about other issues? Should a woman be denied the pill under the law? Should a married woman have to have her husbands 'permission' to get a precription for the pill in the same way that some places don't allow a married partner to be steralised without consent. Should a woman have to have the male partners permission to have an abortion?

Where does the line get crossed between a woman having control of her body and where the law should step in.

(For the purpose of discussion, I know what the Catholic viewpoints on contraception are, I am asking whether you think LAWS should be changed).

Likewise, have we evolved to the point where we are so wrapped up in protecting 'a woman's right to her bodyand choice' that we are forgetting about the fathers in the situation? Is it fair that a father has basically no say in the life of his future child - if the woman wants an Abortion, he is basically powerless to stop her. If the woman wants to keep the child, he is obligated to pay a large portion of his wages in child support. Is it fair that he is bound to her decision.

Along the same lines - if a woman wants and abortion but the father is willing to take and raise the child, should the woman be forced to carry it to term even though she is the one who will 'suffer' (for want of a better word) through pregnancy and loss of wages while her ex waits around for the baby.

What rights should a woman have and not have to her body in the EYES OF THE LAW? I am not just talking about the church beliefs here, but also the law.

 

[Dream]

Ideally, there shouldn't even need to be laws regarding abortion and contreceptives. If we lived in a completly moral society, nobody would want to get an abortion.

Estefana, you must realize that when people argue that women should have control over their own body, they are thinking along the wrong lines. Women should have control over their own body. Women should be able to eat what they want, excerise if they feel like it, even go on a diet if they choose to. But when you throw a child into the picture, it is no longer about a woman's control over her body; it's about a woman's control over a child.

You'll hear some feminists (femiNazi's as Rush calls them ) absolutely outraged at the idea that they shouldn't take the pill or have an abortion. They just don't realize that it isn't their body their body they are killing, or their body that spontaneously aborted by the pill.

So in answer to your question, yes, I believe laws should be in place. Protecting an innocent life far outweighs protecting a boyfriend and girlfriend's right to have casual sex.

 

[Carrye]

But when you throw a child into the picture, it is no longer about a woman's control over her body; it's about a woman's control over a child.

And that's exactly the point. So what do we do? We say, "well it's not a child". If it's not a child, then there's no problem.

Protecting an innocent life far outweighs protecting a boyfriend and girlfriend's right to have casual sex.

Which is not a right in the first place; it's an ability. I have the ability to go and kill someone too, but just because I can doesn't mean I should.

It seems that the way out of this is with natural law, but that is something that many modern deny outright, eventhough they hold to much of it without knowing that they do.

For the record: Abortion is wrong when rape is the cause. The baby inside is not any less human because of the awful circumstances by which it came to be.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Ideally, there shouldn't even need to be laws regarding abortion and contreceptives. If we lived in a completly moral society, nobody would want to get an abortion.

Estefana, you must realize that when people argue that women should have control over their own body, they are thinking along the wrong lines. Women should have control over their own body. Women should be able to eat what they want, excerise if they feel like it, even go on a diet if they choose to. But when you throw a child into the picture, it is no longer about a woman's control over her body; it's about a woman's control over a child.

You'll hear some feminists (femiNazi's as Rush calls them ) absolutely outraged at the idea that they shouldn't take the pill or have an abortion. They just don't realize that it isn't their body their body they are killing, or their body that spontaneously aborted by the pill.

So in answer to your question, yes, I believe laws should be in place. Protecting an innocent life far outweighs protecting a boyfriend and girlfriend's right to have casual sex.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DreamTheater again."

 

[Dream]

And that's exactly the point. So what do we do? We say, "well it's not a child". If it's not a child, then there's no problem.

Education is the key.

Which is not a right in the first place; it's an ability. I have the ability to go and kill someone too, but just because I can doesn't mean I should.

I know it's not a right. I was merely using that phrase for satirical purposes.

For the record: Abortion is wrong when rape is the cause. The baby inside is not any less human because of the awful circumstances by which it came to be.

I second that.

 

[Carrye]

I know it's not a right. I was merely using that phrase for satirical purposes.

I know. I was agreeing with you, but just trying to drive the point home.

 

[Estefana]

For the record: Abortion is wrong when rape is the cause. The baby inside is not any less human because of the awful circumstances by which it came to be.

Thats something I struggle with because I don't think it is fair to say to a raped young woman 'You must carry this child to term and give birth to it, regardless of what memories it brings back of your horrible ordeal and regardless of whether it is going to make things more emotional difficult'.

I feel like it would be a very sick thing to do to force a rape victim to carry the child against her will.

 

[Dream]

Thats something I struggle with because I don't think it is fair to say to a raped young woman 'You must carry this child to term and give birth to it, regardless of what memories it brings back of your horrible ordeal and regardless of whether it is going to make things more emotional difficult'.

I feel like it would be a very sick thing to do to force a rape victim to carry the child against her will.

Yes, this is a very difficult concept to grasp, but human life is human life. The child that is inside the mother's womb has the same right to life as the child in the womb of a happily married child.

When rape occurs, there are two innocent victims: the mother and the child. Two wrongs don't make a right. Killing the child will not make up for the damages done to the mother.

 

[Carrye]

Thats something I struggle with because I don't think it is fair to say to a raped young woman 'You must carry this child to term and give birth to it, regardless of what memories it brings back of your horrible ordeal and regardless of whether it is going to make things more emotional difficult'.

I feel like it would be a very sick thing to do to force a rape victim to carry the child against her will.

I understand your sentiment, but the problem is the reality - something it is clear that you understand - the woman would be carrying a child. I don't mean to sound heartless, because the rape was undoubtedly an awful experience for her. It wasn't something she asked for, but sometimes we're dealt cards we don't want.

People get cancer, family members die unexpectedly, houses burn down. None of the people in those situations asked for those things to happen ... and yet they did. We could say that it is unfair to ask them to deal with their circumstances too, but 'unfair' does not determine right or wrong.

The child she is carrying is alive inside of her. The child's soul is a gift from God. And even if she is not a religious person, biology shows movement and life. We do not take innocent human life. Another wrong won't make the situation right.

 

[Estefana]

Yes, this is a very difficult concept to grasp, but human life is human life. The child that is inside the mother's womb has the same right to life as the child in the womb of a happily married child.

When rape occurs, there are two innocent victims: the mother and the child. Two wrongs don't make a right. Killing the child will not make up for the damages done to the mother.

I get exactly what you are saying, but I think the reason I find it so hard is because of my age really. As a young woman, what would I do if I got raped at College next year, or if it happened to a friend with very little money and whose parents would basically tell her to bort.

But what I am saying is that I don't agree that abortion for rape victims should be illegal.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Now I know that we are all against Abortion (except possibly in the cases of Mother or Baby's life in danger or Rape) but what about other issues? Should a woman be denied the pill under the law? Should a married woman have to have her husbands 'permission' to get a precription for the pill in the same way that some places don't allow a married partner to be steralised without consent. Should a woman have to have the male partners permission to have an abortion?

I know your questions are in regards to the law, but just in case you are not aware;

1. the Catholic Church recognizes that life is sacred, and thus does not condone abortion in any circumstance, not even in cases of rape. We cannot pick and choose when we feel life is sacred and when killing an unborn baby is justified. Such as cases of rape, we should not respond to an evil with another evil.

2. Similarly, all artificial birth control and contraception are morally illicit for the same reasons. The pill, for example, not only thwarts the natural act of sexual union between a man and a woman, but it has also been proven to be abortive.

Consdiering the Catholic Church is in the fullness of truth, ideally, the law should conform to her teachings. So to answer your question of how far should the law go to limit a woman having a choice over her own body (i.e., killing an unborn), it should go all the way. The law should not under any circumstance allow a baby to be killed.

May the Lord give you His peace!

-Davide

 

[Carrye]

As a young woman, what would I do if I got raped at College next year

You have no idea how many times I've thought about that. Honestly. And perhaps that's part of the reason why I have such a strong conviction about this. I considered the possibility when I entered college, and it became even more of a reality once entering grad school. I'd actually thought through what I would do if it ever happened.

But again, the circumstances surrounding the conception of a child do not change who/what the child is.

 

[Dream]

I get exactly what you are saying, but I think the reason I find it so hard is because of my age really. As a young woman, what would I do if I got raped at College next year, or if it happened to a friend with very little money and whose parents would basically tell her to bort.

But what I am saying is that I don't agree that abortion for rape victims should be illegal.

Yea, this reaction is perfectly understandable.

I believe that the Church permits a rape victim to to be given a contraceptive if ovulation or conception haven't occured yet. Somebody else could probablly lead you to what is an acceptable contraceptive and what is not.

 

[princess_ballet]

(You have to love how God is basically a forbidden word at schools these days)

Actually, that's not at all true, and its that attitude that drives God farther and farther away from schools.

get exactly what you are saying, but I think the reason I find it so hard is because of my age really. As a young woman, what would I do if I got raped at College next year, or if it happened to a friend with very little money and whose parents would basically tell her to bort.

What would you do? You would carry the baby to term and then give it up for adoption. It is not the baby's fault that you were raped; is it? Why should the baby die because of the sins of its father? That is especially unfair. I understand that is a tramatic thing to go through, but to wrongs do NOT make a right.

I understand your sentiment, but the problem is the reality - something it is clear that you understand - the woman would be carrying a child. I don't mean to sound heartless

It sounds more heartless to me to kill the child.

 

[Rising_Suns]

You have no idea how many times I've thought about that. Honestly. And perhaps that's part of the reason why I have such a strong conviction about this. I considered the possibility when I entered college, and it became even more of a reality once entering grad school. I'd actually thought through what I would do if it ever happened..

This happened to my friend; she was brutally raped and didn't find out months later that she was preganat. She became this "what if" that you are talking about, and for her, as soon as she found out she had a human life within her body, the option of abortion was totally out of the question.

The baby just had her 1 year birthday. Her name is ashley.

 

[ZooMom]

Thats something I struggle with because I don't think it is fair to say to a raped young woman 'You must carry this child to term and give birth to it, regardless of what memories it brings back of your horrible ordeal and regardless of whether it is going to make things more emotional difficult'.

I feel like it would be a very sick thing to do to force a rape victim to carry the child against her will.

I understand how you feel, Estefana. I used to feel the same way. But it is wrong to kill a child, no matter the circumstances of it's conception. The child is not to blame, and it's life is no less worthy than a child concieved in love. Having an abortion does not 'erase' the ordeal that a rape victim went through. It doesn't make everything better, it doesn't mean that she will 'forget'. Aside from that, a child is not only the product of the father. That's her child too. Flesh of her flesh. People may not agree with me, and I hope I don't offend anyone, but I think that children that result from rape are a special blessing and gift of healing for the mother. That an act so devoid of love toward a woman should produce someone who can gift us with what is the closest thing to perfect love on this earth...how can that not heal? Anyway...that's just my view.


Peace be with you!

Sandy

 

[Rising_Suns]

People may not agree with me, and I hope I don't offend anyone, but I think that children that result from rape are a special blessing and gift of healing for the mother. That an act so devoid of love toward a woman should produce someone who can gift us with what is the closest thing to perfect love on this earth...how can that not heal?

I agree with you 100% on this.

 

[ZooMom]

And once again, I am about three steps behind everyone else. Great answers, everyone!

 

[Carrye]

This happened to my friend; she was brutally raped and didn't find out months later that she was preganat. She became this "what if" that you are talking about, and for her, as soon as she found out she had a human life within her body, the option of abortion was totally out of the question.

The baby just had her 1 year birthday. Her name is ashley.

May God bless your friend and her little girl!

That was the same conclusion I'd come to Davide. If it ever happened to me, I'd carry the child and raise him/her. That little baby would have been a part of me. And God never gives us more than we have the strength to endure.

 

[Estefana]

What would you do? You would carry the baby to term and then give it up for adoption. It is not the baby's fault that you were raped; is it? Why should the baby die because of the sins of its father? That is especially unfair. I understand that is a tramatic thing to go through, but to wrongs do NOT make a right.

You know what I mean - what do you do for money? When you are a billion milaes away from home? When you don't feel comfortable telling people how that bump got there because you don't want to talk about the rape, but you don't want to lie and say you slept with a random guy either.

What I mean is that why should it be made illegal in that should 60 year old politicions be making a decision for a raped woman on her behalf when they will never be in her shoes. In a way, it seems that sometimes the life of this baby can be put above the woman.

Right now it is getting to me because a girl from school was raped and is now pregnant. She wants an abortion so she can finish school and get into college, but her parents won't hear of it and now she is praying to have a miscarriage. It is so sad, it is making me cry.