A universal language?

[Antoninus Verus]

I was talking to a friend today who's in calculus and she was telling me how her math teacher was saying that math is a universal language. If we communicated with an alien race, we'd do it through math.

Well....I dont know about that. Mathematics is consistant throught the human population, 1+1=2 no matter where you go in the world. But that may not be so with an alien race. Thier ideas of mathematics may be different from ours.

So whats the one universal constant? The thing that is static in all the universe? Remember highschool chemestry?

An atom is an atom no matter what name you call it. A hydrogen atom is still composed of a single negatively charged electron distributed around the positively charged proton.

The universe is made of these base elements (Hydrogen, carbon etc) so an alien race would have knowleage of these elements, no matter what names they called them.

So certain elements, or groups of elements could serve as letters or ideas in a universal language since all races would have the same knowleage of the elements found throught the universe

 

[GreenDragon]

Can't atoms be described by math? That way the "signal" could be transmitted over radio/light/electricity, instead of physically.

 

[kedaman]

The stick is the universal language, and the one who got a bigger stick defines it. If there is no biggest stick there is no universal constant, if there is no ultimate authority then there is no God.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

Can't atoms be described by math? That way the "signal" could be transmitted over radio/light/electricity, instead of physically.

No, alien races would not understand our mathematics and we would not understand thiers. It would be like you trying to read heiroglyphs. But an alien race thats advanced enough to make contact with us almost surely would know of the basic elements that make up the universe.

The stick is the universal language, and the one who got a bigger stick defines it. If there is no biggest stick there is no universal constant, if there is no ultimate authority then there is no God.

Im affraid I dont understand

 

[MoonlessNight]

I was talking to a friend today who's in calculus and she was telling me how her math teacher was saying that math is a universal language. If we communicated with an alien race, we'd do it through math.

Well....I dont know about that. Mathematics is consistant throught the human population, 1+1=2 no matter where you go in the world. But that may not be so with an alien race. Thier ideas of mathematics may be different from ours.

So whats the one universal constant? The thing that is static in all the universe? Remember highschool chemestry?

An atom is an atom no matter what name you call it. A hydrogen atom is still composed of a single negatively charged electron distributed around the positively charged proton.

The universe is made of these base elements (Hydrogen, carbon etc) so an alien race would have knowleage of these elements, no matter what names they called them.

So certain elements, or groups of elements could serve as letters or ideas in a universal language since all races would have the same knowleage of the elements found throught the universe

Even if we cede that all sufficiently advanced aliens have knowledge of certain base elements, how does that help us? The only way that we can be sure that aliens get the point is to send them the actual elements themselves, as we cannot be sure that they will have vision and thus cannot use any visual notation and so on with all the other senses. But if they have had experience with the element the should be able to recognize the element itself. This is very impractical, however.

Then we get into the problem of how to make this into a language. Yes we could send some hydrogen atoms over to an alien, but what are they supposed to think other than "hey, here's some hydrogen." We need to somehow get a sematical meaning out of a syntaxical setting (as we cannot be sure of any associations aliens might have with elements other than knowing that they are what they are, i.e. helium is helium). But that's impossible unless we agree on certain semantical meanings for the elements, and unfortunatly there is no way to imprint these meanings into the elements themselves. So this would only work as a language between a race we had already established communication with. But in that case, why not just expand the previous form of communication?

Perhaps it would be good for a large group of aliens, with no capabilities common across the entire group. Then they could all "read" the language, but we are a long way off from that.

As for first contact with aliens, I think our best bet is either to hope that they have eyes and send pictograms. We can use math to show that we are intellegent (sending light in prime groupings of bursts is the most popular in sci-fi, as far as we can tell) but math, for much the same reasons that we cannot use elements as a natural language, cannot say much about anything outside of math (and very little inside it).

 

[kedaman]

This is nothing new. I don't know whether you understand what I'm saying or not, whether you say "I don't understand", or "I understand". You could just as well have been trained to do the opposite. You are all the aliens to me, and I don't expect you to understand but my duty is not to make you understand but to make that possible.

How do you teach a child what you say? Do the same with aliens. You've got the stick.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

Even if we cede that all sufficiently advanced aliens have knowledge of certain base elements, how does that help us? The only way that we can be sure that aliens get the point is to send them the actual elements themselves, as we cannot be sure that they will have vision and thus cannot use any visual notation and so on with all the other senses. But if they have had experience with the element the should be able to recognize the element itself. This is very impractical, however.

An atom is an atom, doesnt matter who's looking at it. If we send a picture of hydrogen, they will recognize it. Now if we attach annother picture with the atom, then we create an association between the atom and the immage. We get more complex by combining atoms into groups to symbolize more complex immages and ideas.

Then we get into the problem of how to make this into a language. Yes we could send some hydrogen atoms over to an alien, but what are they supposed to think other than "hey, here's some hydrogen." We need to somehow get a sematical meaning out of a syntaxical setting (as we cannot be sure of any associations aliens might have with elements other than knowing that they are what they are, i.e. helium is helium). But that's impossible unless we agree on certain semantical meanings for the elements, and unfortunatly there is no way to imprint these meanings into the elements themselves. So this would only work as a language between a race we had already established communication with. But in that case, why not just expand the previous form of communication?

My previous picture assosciation model. Say Hydrogen and Sodium for "Love" and after time and practice, the aliens would begin to understand and connect different immages and understand us, much like a child learning to speak for his first time.

As for first contact with aliens, I think our best bet is either to hope that they have eyes and send pictograms. We can use math to show that we are intellegent (sending light in prime groupings of bursts is the most popular in sci-fi, as far as we can tell) but math, for much the same reasons that we cannot use elements as a natural language, cannot say much about anything outside of math (and very little inside it).

The problem with pictograms, and the glaring flaw in my own model, is that we may send them a peace message and give them thier equvalent of the finger plus immages that mean things to us, may mean nothing to them. Allthough I suppose we could show them immages of our planet, after a while I think they would begin to understand some of our symbology.

We cant use math, math is too relative to our species and is meaningless as throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon. 1+1=2 to all humans....to all humans, that may not work for aliens

 

[MoonlessNight]

An atom is an atom, doesnt matter who's looking at it. If we send a picture of hydrogen, they will recognize it. Now if we attach annother picture with the atom, then we create an association between the atom and the immage. We get more complex by combining atoms into groups to symbolize more complex immages and ideas.

First off most "pictures" of atoms that we have are really abstractions, especially when you consider that there's really no such thing as an electron orbit, just areas of probablility. And it would be difficult to send an actual picture of an atom because they are so small (you certainly can't send pictures of anything smaller; else it'd be too small for photons to even bounce off and thus they don't have a visual image in any real sense.) But even with all that in mind, isn't it a bit presumptious to think that aliens would have eyes? They certainly aren't necessary.

My previous picture assosciation model. Say Hydrogen and Sodium for "Love" and after time and practice, the aliens would begin to understand and connect different immages and understand us, much like a child learning to speak for his first time.

The problem with pictograms, and the glaring flaw in my own model, is that we may send them a peace message and give them thier equvalent of the finger plus immages that mean things to us, may mean nothing to them. Allthough I suppose we could show them immages of our planet, after a while I think they would begin to understand some of our symbology.

I don't see how it is dangerous to send pictograms but not dangerous to send atomic information and whatever else is necessary to associate the image (pictures, I'd imagine). For all we know the activity we try to associate with the atoms might mean something totally different to them (for example perhaps they eat their dead and thus a picture of a cafeteria for "food" might get interpreted as "death" or "funeral". That's just a simple example, there's no telling how they would interpret anything.)

We cant use math, math is too relative to our species and is meaningless as throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon. 1+1=2 to all humans....to all humans, that may not work for aliens

1 + 1 = 2 all the time for all species as long as you define 1, 2, + and = correctly and sufficiently. If you think that the concept is relativistic and that aliens might disagree with the concept itself (as opposed to the way in which the concept is expressed) then that means that basic logic is also different from species to species. And if that is true than speaking with them is going to be a nightmare anyway.

 

[Abbadon]

No, alien races would not understand our mathematics and we would not understand thiers. It would be like you trying to read heiroglyphs. But an alien race thats advanced enough to make contact with us almost surely would know of the basic elements that make up the universe.

I think that any species advanced enough to get across a whole bunch of lightyears to visit our old ball of mud would be smart enough to figure out binary or true/false, and we could get the basics across. Assuming they don't look at us the way I do cattle...

 

[Abbadon]

How do you teach a child what you say? Do the same with aliens. You've got the stick.

The stick does just fine for not having to communicate, or to remove the other person's ability to communicate.

*GREETINGS EARTH--*

(WHAP!)

*WHA-? THEY HAVE WEAPO-*

(WHAP! WHAP! WHAP!)

*RETREAT!*

 

[Marek]

First off most "pictures" of atoms that we have are really abstractions, especially when you consider that there's really no such thing as an electron orbit, just areas of probablility. And it would be difficult to send an actual picture of an atom because they are so small (you certainly can't send pictures of anything smaller; else it'd be too small for photons to even bounce off and thus they don't have a visual image in any real sense.) But even with all that in mind, isn't it a bit presumptious to think that aliens would have eyes? They certainly aren't necessary.



I don't see how it is dangerous to send pictograms but not dangerous to send atomic information and whatever else is necessary to associate the image (pictures, I'd imagine). For all we know the activity we try to associate with the atoms might mean something totally different to them (for example perhaps they eat their dead and thus a picture of a cafeteria for "food" might get interpreted as "death" or "funeral". That's just a simple example, there's no telling how they would interpret anything.)



1 + 1 = 2 all the time for all species as long as you define 1, 2, + and = correctly and sufficiently. If you think that the concept is relativistic and that aliens might disagree with the concept itself (as opposed to the way in which the concept is expressed) then that means that basic logic is also different from species to species. And if that is true than speaking with them is going to be a nightmare anyway.

Correct.

 

[Phred]

In 2001 A Space Odyssey the Monolith represented a mathematical RATIO. 1x4x9, the squares of the first three numbers. A ratio will be the same no matter what numbers you use, what base you use, or what system you choose. Pioneer 10 has a plaque on it that uses the frequency of the hydrogen atom (about 8 inches) next to the binary number for '8' to represent the height of the human female figure represented upon it... 64 inches.

Ratios, constants... these are things we'll use to signal others we are intelligent. True communication is a long way past just numbers.

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