- Oct 2, 2020
- 28,152
- 15,264
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
Well considering how often I get snapped at, that would be a whole lot of statements.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Well considering how often I get snapped at, that would be a whole lot of statements.Better to avoid statements that you will regret.
None will snap if no provocation is given.Well considering how often I get snapped at, that would be a whole lot of statements.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write out that reply, it was actually going really well and I was "on board" with, I actually thought we were going to be able to have a discussion until you wrote the below part:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Since you, yourself, are not embraced by "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:" I do not see how it can provide for you an "out".
I do not think that the Catholic Church teaches the damnation of anyone, but it does state that for those who knowingly and wilfully break with the Church there is grave danger. That is sufficient I would think, to make anyone of sound mind stop and take note. But if what the Catholic Church says does not matter and you are persuaded that the warning she gives may be safely ignored because you think that they are in error, then the risk is yours and you are in all likelihood unable to participate in this discussion constructively, because Catholics know full well that former-Catholics who are now protestants are persuaded that their current perspective is true and right.
In all due respect, if seems as if you are the one that cannot have a constructive conversation about the subject. Of course I believe my perspective is true and right, just as you do. Honestly, that should be our starting point, me a Protestant and you a Catholic - each of us knowing the other's perspective on what is "true and right". But that does not mean we can't have a conversation about it in a constructive manner, at least I thought that we could.and you are in all likelihood unable to participate in this discussion constructively, because Catholics know full well that former-Catholics who are now protestants are persuaded that their current perspective is true and right.
Well, you see, it is not so much that you think you're right and I think I'm right. I started this thread to show, with proper qualifications, that Catholics do not, in fact, think all protestants are doomed to hell - a point of view I have seen expressed by a number of protestants on CF. But what the CCC has to say on the matter does not include those who are apostates, or who claim to be such by claiming to have knowingly and willingly parted company with the Catholic Church because they studied Catholic teaching and found it wanting, having grasped it well and fully.In all due respect, if seems as if you are the one that cannot have a constructive conversation about the subject. Of course I believe my perspective is true and right, just as you do. Honestly, that should be our starting point, me a Protestant and you a Catholic - each of us knowing the other's perspective on what is "true and right". But that does not mean we can't have a conversation about it in a constructive manner, at least I thought that we could.
Fair enough, thanks for the added information. I sincerely pray you have a blessed week.Well, you see, it is not so much that you think you're right and I think I'm right. I started this thread to show, with proper qualifications, that Catholics do not, in fact, think all protestants are doomed to hell - a point of view I have seen expressed by a number of protestants on CF. But what the CCC has to say on the matter does not include those who are apostates, or who claim to be such by claiming to have knowingly and willingly parted company with the Catholic Church because they studied Catholic teaching and found it wanting, having grasped it well and fully.
I am always willing to be informative and helpful when I can.Fair enough, thanks for the added information. I sincerely pray you have a blessed week.
Ok. There should be plenty-who haven't read much history for themselves-Right but I'd also be interested in hearing from someone who didn't resolve their objections even though they understand the Catholic faith.
I only had the one a couple of posts above in mind. Maybe you and he could go though matters in another thread since the OP doesn't want him in this one. That said, I'm always happy to converse/debate with you in this thread. I've enjoyed our past conversations.Ok. There should be plenty-who haven't read much history for themselves-.
That's because there are hardcore old school Catholics who have a less magnanimous view of salvation outside of being a Roman Catholic. Listening to the RC apologist Tim Staples was my first in depth experience with that. His assessment struck me as pretty much being some non-catholics might escape hell by the skin of their teeth if they work really hard at it. Quite frankly at the time when I was experiencing spiritual turmoil I found what he said quite upsetting. To the point that when I started on CF I was basically leery of Catholic members and even put several on ignore because I didn't want to end up crossing paths with them.Well, you see, it is not so much that you think you're right and I think I'm right. I started this thread to show, with proper qualifications, that Catholics do not, in fact, think all protestants are doomed to hell - a point of view I have seen expressed by a number of protestants on CF.
They will when they're irascible and snap at the drop of a feather.None will snap if no provocation is given.
Thank youI only had the one a couple of posts above in mind. Maybe you and he could go though matters in another thread since the OP doesn't want him in this one. That said, I'm always happy to converse/debate with you in this thread. I've enjoyed our past conversations.
You're welcome. Would you say that the view regarding this topic is pretty wide ranged among Catholics? For instance I find that when I compare what the Catholic apologist Tim Staples says about it, to what I've heard Pope Francis say about it, it goes from very difficult at best, to very easy.Thank you
I suggest that Mr Tim Staples is not really an authority on what the Catholic Church teaches regarding this topic, but the Catechism of the Catholic Church is an authority on it.You're welcome. Would you say that the view regarding this topic is pretty wide ranged among Catholics? For instance I find that when I compare what the Catholic apologist Tim Staples says about it, to what I've heard Pope Francis say about it, it goes from very difficult at best, to very easy.
That's because there are hardcore old school Catholics who have a less magnanimous view of salvation outside of being a Roman Catholic. Listening to the RC apologist Tim Staples was my first in depth experience with that. His assessment struck me as pretty much being some non-catholics might escape hell by the skin of their teeth if they work really hard at it. Quite frankly at the time when I was experiencing spiritual turmoil I found what he said quite upsetting. To the point that when I started on CF I was basically leery of Catholic members and even put several on ignore because I didn't want to end up crossing paths with them.
It is his will that we accept Jesus.
Salvation was God's idea - he could have destroyed Adam and Eve on the spot. He didn't; he clothed them in an animal skin to cover their nakedness. He escorted them from the Garden, but he didn't give up on them.
God gave the Hebrew slaves his covenant. They broke it, again and again, he still spoke to them and urged them to repent and turn to him.
Eventually God sent Jesus - his Son, the Lamb chosen from the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20. He wants us to accept his free gift, his Son and what he has done for us. He wants a relationship with us - that is his will.
Exactly! And that's how the commandments which Jesus referred to when speaking to the young man are authentically fulfilled, just as the commandments that Paul lists in Rom 13 are fulfilled by love-that’s the only way, in fact.The commandment Jesus gave us is to love one another as he loved us.
We cannot love with Jesus' divine, agape love until we have first received divine love from God.
Yes, that's the idea. But it's not automatic that we do it-that's why Jesus told them that they must.Forgive as, and because, God forgave us.
As Jesus said, "love one another as I have loved you."
From sin? Do you mean from the consequences of sin? The way we're saved from the consequences of sin is to be empowered now to overcome it. And if we don't, then we die. You should read the bible for yourself-not through the lens of novel theologies.We are saved from sin when we accept that Jesus died - gave his life - for us.
He'll always help us to do that. But He never overwhelms the human will, whether in our coming to Him, or in our remaining in Him. Grace is always resistible. God wants your will, you participation-involved-and increasingly so. Faith, hope, and love are at one and the same time gifts-and human choices -to accept and act upon those gifts.It is Jesus who gives us the right to become children of God, John 1:12, his Spirit who assures us that we are children of God, Romans 8:16 and Jesus who gives the victory over sin and temptation.
Of course we need to remain in the vine - in Jesus. But he can help us to do that too. It's never achieved by our own works and efforts.
That's the ideal- but no guarantees on that. Again, He will not force us to love Him, or to persevere in loving Him. It's contingent-on our response to Him and His will, and our continued response.No idea - I don't do long words.
Anyone who has received God's grace and amazing love will WANT to remain in him, serve him and love him.
Not if we continue in sin.We'll be asked to account for how we've used our gifts and time; certainly.
We won't be judged for our sins - Jesus has already taken those.
God can save us however He wants, with or without baptism, with or without faith, with or without works. Either way we simply do as He commands. Every ancient church baptized for the remission of sin; they knew no other way. They didn’t engage in theological speculation about it, they simply did what Jesus modeled and told them to do. There was never even a controversy over this matter. That would come later when Protestants divided with each other over baptismal regeneration, based on Scripture alone.No.
Baptism is an outward sign of what takes place when we become believers. We go under the water - figuratively, death; dying to sin - and we are raised to new life.
Jesus saves us, makes us clean and new creations. If someone accepted Christ but died before they were able to be baptised, they would still be saved. Conversely, someone may be baptised but not really believe. For some non Christians, having their child baptised is almost a superstition - "to make sure they get to heaven." JWs and Mormons baptise their followers - and they don't accept the Trinity or who Jesus was.
Nonsense. It has nothing to do with just accepting that He died for our sins. It has to do with entering fellowship with God knowing that we're forgiven, and then living like it, like His children should. The obligation in the following passage doesn't change one iota with the new covenant:We are saved from sin when we accept that Jesus died - gave his life - for us.
Well, yeah! Because through and because of Him we are justified.Whoever is in Christ IS a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
He does the judging, not us. God, alone, knows whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. But to the extent that we love Him and neighbor, born out by fruit in our lives, not wanton sinning in grave manner that contradicts and opposes that love, we can have a healthy assurance that we're within His will and that we're His. Talk, by itself, is cheap.When someone accepts God's amazing love, grace and free gift of eternal life, they are saved.
We don't become perfect when we are saved - but we know the One who will forgive us and make us clean.
If someone walks away/backslides, only God really knows whether they have deliberately turned their back on, and rejected, him - or whether they are going through a really bad time and have been led astray by the devil.
Once saved always saved is not a doctrine that affects how we live as Christians.
Anyone who has experienced God's amazing love, grace and many blessings will WANT to live for him, please him and remain in him. I don't know about you, but I have no intention of walking away from God and sinning, just to test whether or not he would receive me back again afterwards.
Everyone comes from different backgrounds and with different gifts. Pope Emeritus Benedict was more of an intellectual, while also spiritual.You're welcome. Would you say that the view regarding this topic is pretty wide ranged among Catholics? For instance I find that when I compare what the Catholic apologist Tim Staples says about it, to what I've heard Pope Francis say about it, it goes from very difficult at best, to very easy.
Have you heard that there are Catholics, including clergy, who say that Pope Francis isn't even Catholic? And that there are Catholics who say that Pope Pius XII was the last legitimate Pope? That there are Catholics who reject Vatican II?Everyone comes from different backgrounds and with different gifts. Pope Emeritus Benedict was more of an intellectual, while also spiritual.
But Francis seems to come mostly from the heart. At best they're all saying the same thing in different ways, while some may appeal to and resonate with some audiences better than others.
They are not in full communion with the Catholic Church.Have you heard that there are Catholics, including clergy, who say that Pope Francis isn't even Catholic? And that there are Catholics who say that Pope Pius XII was the last legitimate Pope? That there are Catholics who reject Vatican II?
Of course-they’re all over the board. Liberals, ultra-tradionalists, conspiracists, lukewarms, zealots, pro-abortionists, ordinary Catholics- we have them all. But at the end of the day the church defines Catholicism, regardless of good or bad popes, laity, et al, and regardless of agreement or disagreement with it. Where you find the catechism, for example, you find Catholicism.Have you heard that there are Catholics, including clergy, who say that Pope Francis isn't even Catholic? And that there are Catholics who say that Pope Pius XII was the last legitimate Pope? That there are Catholics who reject Vatican II?
When someone, the OP I think, was pointing out divisions among Protestants, I pointed out that I've seen divisions among Catholics as well. But that was shot down. It seems like basically anything I say about Catholicism amounts to Protestant ignorance and lies and hatred of Catholics, according to some.Of course-they’re all over the board. Liberals, ultra-tradionalists, conspiracists, lukewarms, zealots, pro-abortionists, ordinary Catholics- we have them all. But at the end of the day the church defines Catholicism, regardless of good or bad popes, laity, et al, and regardless of agreement or disagreement with it.
Are there differing interpretations of what the catechism says?Where you find the catechism, for example, you find Catholicism.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?