A thought, for atheists, believers, etc...

[five]

I used to be strongly atheist, and I still lean in that direction, but after spending a lot of time thinking I've come to realize that I don't, and can't, know why or how we're here. And it came from a rather simple thought: Why is there something instead of nothing?

This, to me, is an extremely interesting question. It doesn't deal with religion, it doesn't deal with evolution, it doesn't deal with the stars or the planets or Jesus or Muhammed. After thinking about it for a good while (A better part of a year) I'm beginning to understand that the chances of divine creation are every bit as likely as causality.

If we think to ourselves, "Okay, there is a universe. And we exist inside this universe. Why does this universe exist, and in turn, why do we exist?" We can reach the conclusion that it's just as easy for nothing to exist as it is for our something to exist.

I don't want to deal with who's god created what, or who's god didn't do anything. I frankly don't care. On one hand, I hate the thought that we might be alone in the Universe, should a Christian god exist. Why would the vast expanse of the universe be wasted on something as insignificant as the Earth? Equally, I hate the thought of my life happening over the span of ~80 years. Fin.

So I suppose the point of all this verbal diarrhea is this: If you are strongly opposed to one side or the other, consider for a minute the posibility that nothing could have ever existed, and no matter what, something extraodinary must have happened to bring about this chain of events, be it supernatural or causal.

 

[Eudaimonist]

And it came from a rather simple thought: Why is there something instead of nothing?

The question is nonsensical. If there were a cause of "something", that cause must exist prior to or outside of "something". But that cause would itself have to be "something", meaning that it could not be the cause of "something".

Do you see the problem? The question cannot logically be answered, or considered answerable. The question itself is invalid.

If you are strongly opposed to one side or the other, consider for a minute the posibility that nothing could have ever existed, and no matter what, something extraodinary must have happened to bring about this chain of events, be it supernatural or causal.

Since that isn't a logical possibility, any more than a square circle is, I'm unconcerned.


eudaimonia,

M.

 

[five]

The question is nonsensical. If there were a cause of "something", that cause must exist prior to or outside of "something". But that cause would itself have to be "something", meaning that it could not be the cause of "something".

We could go back like this to infinity. And obviously something has existed infinitely for us to, in fact, be here. But just as easily as whatever has existed, it might not have existed. It's a convoluted thought right now.. I'll try to think of a better way of wording it and come back to it.

 

[Spinrad]

I used to be strongly atheist, and I still lean in that direction, but after spending a lot of time thinking I've come to realize that I don't, and can't, know why or how we're here. And it came from a rather simple thought: Why is there something instead of nothing?

This, to me, is an extremely interesting question. It doesn't deal with religion, it doesn't deal with evolution, it doesn't deal with the stars or the planets or Jesus or Muhammed. After thinking about it for a good while (A better part of a year) I'm beginning to understand that the chances of divine creation are every bit as likely as causality.

If we think to ourselves, "Okay, there is a universe. And we exist inside this universe. Why does this universe exist, and in turn, why do we exist?" We can reach the conclusion that it's just as easy for nothing to exist as it is for our something to exist.

I don't want to deal with who's god created what, or who's god didn't do anything. I frankly don't care. On one hand, I hate the thought that we might be alone in the Universe, should a Christian god exist. Why would the vast expanse of the universe be wasted on something as insignificant as the Earth? Equally, I hate the thought of my life happening over the span of ~80 years. Fin.

So I suppose the point of all this verbal diarrhea is this: If you are strongly opposed to one side or the other, consider for a minute the posibility that nothing could have ever existed, and no matter what, something extraodinary must have happened to bring about this chain of events, be it supernatural or causal.

Not really. Extraordinary compared to what? For all you know something extraordinary would have had to happen to prevent something from being here. Or whatever "happened was the only logical thing that could have happened, rendering the event perfectly ordinary given the circumstances.

Being an atheist has not, at this point, precluded me from entertaining the notion that a God - or anything else - created the universe. But I can't see anything in the universe that would lead to believe that a God DID, and that is what is needed to remove atheism.

 

[Eudaimonist]

But just as easily as whatever has existed, it might not have existed.

I don't agree. I don't see any reason why this must be so, and it still leaves open the question "what would cause something to exist as opposed to not causing something to exist", which fails my test above.


eudaimonia,

M.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste five,

thank you for the post.

I used to be strongly atheist, and I still lean in that direction, but after spending a lot of time thinking I've come to realize that I don't, and can't, know why or how we're here. And it came from a rather simple thought: Why is there something instead of nothing?

that you cannot know does not mean that such things cannot be known by others.

if there was "nothing" we wouldn't be having this conversation. as such, it seems that the Anthropic Principle is in order here.

After thinking about it for a good while (A better part of a year) I'm beginning to understand that the chances of divine creation are every bit as likely as causality.

what sort of predictive methodology would you use to test the "goddidit" bit?

If we think to ourselves, "Okay, there is a universe. And we exist inside this universe. Why does this universe exist, and in turn, why do we exist?" We can reach the conclusion that it's just as easy for nothing to exist as it is for our something to exist.

Anthropic Principle. Dr. Hawking has a good explanation for this, however, if you are not very versed in physics much of it will not make sense.

Equally, I hate the thought of my life happening over the span of ~80 years. Fin.

all compounded things decay.

So I suppose the point of all this verbal diarrhea is this: If you are strongly opposed to one side or the other, consider for a minute the posibility that nothing could have ever existed, and no matter what, something extraodinary must have happened to bring about this chain of events, be it supernatural or causal.

i don't recall anyone saying that the No Boundary Proposal is anything but extraordinary.

however, i see no real means for coming to a definitive conclusion on this since we, humans, lack the ability to see anything before Planck Time (sp?).

this seems, however, like a different form of the "God of the Gaps" which has been shown to be flawed. "God did it" has never led to any sort of knowledge concerning the natural world that i am aware of.

metta,

~v

 

[quatona]

If we think to ourselves, "Okay, there is a universe. And we exist inside this universe. Why does this universe exist, and in turn, why do we exist?" We can reach the conclusion that it's just as easy for nothing to exist as it is for our something to exist.

I agree with the last part, although I never think to myself things like "Why does the universe / do we exist?"

I don't want to deal with who's god created what, or who's god didn't do anything. I frankly don't care. On one hand, I hate the thought that we might be alone in the Universe, should a Christian god exist. Why would the vast expanse of the universe be wasted on something as insignificant as the Earth? Equally, I hate the thought of my life happening over the span of ~80 years. Fin.

I understand your feelings.
[quoteSo I suppose the point of all this verbal diarrhea is this: If you are strongly opposed to one side or the other, consider for a minute the posibility that nothing could have ever existed, and no matter what, something extraodinary must have happened to bring about this chain of events, be it supernatural or causal.[/quote]
I do not see how the conclusion (something extraordinary must have happened) follows from the premise (nothing could have ever existed). So far I just see that one of two options (a. something exists, b. nothing exists) is there. I do not see, however, how this can or must be considered extraordinary. Since things exist, existence is not extraordinary, but just the given state.

 

[michabo]

Why is there something instead of nothing?

Theism doesn't help, there. In fact, it's worse. The "something" which we're talking about here is presumably the universe itself which, while it appears very complex, is a result of some extremely simple events. Sort of like tossing a deck of cards - a simple event causing a very complex result.

But with God, the something (god) is extremely complex: sentient, powerful, etc. If you think that it's a thorny issue for why some elementary particles should exist in a newly formed universe, how can you seriously consider the issue of how a god could exist?

I'm beginning to understand that the chances of divine creation are every bit as likely as causality.

Really? Are you sure you aren't just placing the answer 'god' where there should be 'I don't know'? True, 'god' can answer just about anything except the questions about god itself - what is it, why is it, how did it form, how does it act, etc.

My guess is that you're feeling like you don't understand how the universe could be here. Maybe you would be more comfortable if you studied cosmology, or just asked yourself why you think you should be able to come up with an answer (especially if it is just based on reason and not on evidence).

We can reach the conclusion that it's just as easy for nothing to exist as it is for our something to exist.

Strangely enough, in our universe, it is impossible for 'nothing' to exist. Whenever there is the possibility that a portion of space is empty of particles, then particles will burst into existence.

When we look into the fundamentals of our universe, it would seem that nature ensures that we never have 'nothing'. Far from it being just as easy for nothing to exist as something, it seems that it is impossible for 'nothing' to exist and inevitable that something does.


Just something to ponder.

 

[ApocryphaNow]

If "nothing" existed, we would never know. Considering there is no way to quantify the chances of "something" existing, since we have no other situation with which to compare, the odds of us existing, since we do in fact exist, are 100%. There is no magical reason why there should be "something" instead of "nothing," but since only one outcome can be observed, only one outcome matters.

On a timescale of infinity, the existence of a universe for a finite amount of time, no matter how large, is just a flash in the pan. Since I am fond of conjecture, it seems interesting to speculate on this using the uncertainty principle. This whole swirling cosmos could be the result of some single virtual particle, akin to those that are so integral to quantum physics today on a much smaller scale (since the time measurement scale cannot be infinity and thus the engery of such a particle is severely limited).

 

[Asimov]

I've come to realize that I don't, and can't, know why or how we're here.

Me too, I'm still a strong atheist.

If you are strongly opposed to one side or the other, consider for a minute the posibility that nothing could have ever existed, and no matter what, something extraodinary must have happened to bring about this chain of events, be it supernatural or causal.

Uh...so?

 

[JonF]

I don't agree. I don't see any reason why this must be so, and it still leaves open the question "what would cause something to exist as opposed to not causing something to exist", which fails my test above.

eudaimonia,

M.

I think he is trying to say: an empty universe would be consistent. What he is supposing is there must be some reason for reality being one way rather than another as long as they are both consistent.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think he is trying to say: an empty universe would be consistent. What he is supposing is there must be some reason for reality being one way rather than another as long as they are both consistent.

Yes, and that "reason" would have to exist prior to existence. Which fails my test.


eudaimonia,

M.

 

[JonF]

there were a cause of "something", that cause must exist prior to or outside of "something".

Causes and reasons are two different things.

If you insert reason where claim is in that statment i disagree with this claim.

 

[azzy]

Listen to your heart,it will speak to you,even amongst all these here,who are trying to act as if they have all the answers.

No one here can prove God does not exist,nor can they prove he isnt the one who made everything.Anyone who thinks they can is foolish.

We just dont have the wisdom or the ability to search out the spiritual dimensions,or the endless expanse of space,or the heavenly places in the spirit world.

Yet you would think by the way some talk ,they act as if they were here when the world was made,and that they were eye witnesses.But no one was here,when this planet was formed,and no one can leave this planet,and get very far,let alone search out the endless universe,to see if there is a God out there somewhere.

The only thing we can do,is to lift up our voice,and ask him to make himself known to us.

May you be bessed on your journey.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Listen to your heart,it will speak to you

The heart seems to say different things to different people.

We just dont have the wisdom or the ability to search out the spiritual dimensions,or the endless expanse of space,or the heavenly places in the spirit world.

Why don't Christians apply this insight to their own dogmas?

But none of this means we can't apply logic to these issues to test speculations.

Yet you would think by the way some talk ,they act as if they were here when the world was made,and that they were eye witnesses.

You misunderstand us. We aren't claiming to know everything, but are simply pointing out that no one really knows that God exists.

The only thing we can do,is to lift up our voice,and ask him to make himself known to us.

Engaging in science and philosophy seems more productive so far.

May you be bessed on your journey.

You too!


eudaimonia,

M.

 

[Freodin]

I used to be strongly atheist, and I still lean in that direction, but after spending a lot of time thinking I've come to realize that I don't, and can't, know why or how we're here. And it came from a rather simple thought: Why is there something instead of nothing?

This, to me, is an extremely interesting question. It doesn't deal with religion, it doesn't deal with evolution, it doesn't deal with the stars or the planets or Jesus or Muhammed. After thinking about it for a good while (A better part of a year) I'm beginning to understand that the chances of divine creation are every bit as likely as causality.

If we think to ourselves, "Okay, there is a universe. And we exist inside this universe. Why does this universe exist, and in turn, why do we exist?" We can reach the conclusion that it's just as easy for nothing to exist as it is for our something to exist.

I don't want to deal with who's god created what, or who's god didn't do anything. I frankly don't care. On one hand, I hate the thought that we might be alone in the Universe, should a Christian god exist. Why would the vast expanse of the universe be wasted on something as insignificant as the Earth? Equally, I hate the thought of my life happening over the span of ~80 years. Fin.

So I suppose the point of all this verbal diarrhea is this: If you are strongly opposed to one side or the other, consider for a minute the posibility that nothing could have ever existed, and no matter what, something extraodinary must have happened to bring about this chain of events, be it supernatural or causal.

Perhaps I am simply smarter than most people, or totally off the line...

... but my answer to this same question "Why is there something instead of nothing?" was "Because nothing is impossible to exist."

(Warning: Freodin´s wierd chaos theory approaching!)

Most people just do not follow the question "What the heck IS nothing?" to its end. "Nothing" is, for most people, just "something of which the absence is noticed".

But to be absent, there has to be another "something" for the first one to be absent from. There have to be rules that define what it means to be present and absent. This is also "something" - and as such could not exist in "nothing".

So "nothing" becomes a meaningless term. For "meaning" would also be "something".... and would have to leave the room.

Rules like "if nothing exists, something can not exist" do also not exist. Logic does not exist. Nothing exist that would prevent this same "nothing" to be "everything" at the same (for want of a better term) time.


So ultimately, "nothing" as defined in "absence of anything" is meaningless. There is always something, which only gets wierder as it approaches "nothing".

Chaos, I would call that.

(Freodin´s wierd chaos theory ended - now beat me senseless.)


So the relevant question would not be "Why is there something instead of nothing?", but "Why is the something that exists is in a certain form?".

 

[azzy]

The heart seems to say different things to different people.



Why don't Christians apply this insight to their own dogmas?

But none of this means we can't apply logic to these issues to test speculations.



You misunderstand us. We aren't claiming to know everything, but are simply pointing out that no one really knows that God exists.



Engaging in science and philosophy seems more productive so far.



You too!


eudaimonia,

M.

You say no one knows that God exists?
How do you know that?

How do you know God hasnt made himself known to a person?

Can God reveal himself to someone?

Can you prove he cant ?

Yes,the heart does say different things to different people,because not everyones heart is the same.Some have wicked hearts,and hearts filled with hate,and unbelief,and some have hearts of stone.Some have humble hearts,and honest hearts.

But to the honest,and humble heart,it will be able to hear the voice of its creator.

 

[quatona]

You say no one knows that God exists?
How do you know that

Because that´s part of the definition of Biblegod.

How do you know God hasnt made himself known to a person?

Right on the money! Any suggestions as to how I could possibly tell whether those claims are correct or not?
As long as you cannot come up with valid criteria for the investigation of those claims, I will take them for what they are: claims of persons.I wasn´t aware that it´s my job to disprove any bizarre claim anyone may come up with.

Can God reveal himself to someone?

What do I know

Can you prove he cant ?

So far we haven´t even agreed that the god of your concept exists. Let´s not make the second step before the first.

Yes,the heart does say different things to different people,because not everyones heart is the same.Some have wicked hearts,and hearts filled with hate,and unbelief,and some have hearts of stone.Some have humble hearts,and honest hearts.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that you are one of those with a humble and honest heart, and I am one with a hate filled wicked heart of stone. What´s left to me but simply admiring and complimenting your humility and honesty?
Unfortunately, according to your humble and honest claims my hate, wickedness and stoneheartedness is likely to prevent me from doing so.
So we will have to leave it at that: You are the great guy, and I am, well, wicked.

But to the honest,and humble heart,it will be able to hear the voice of its creator.

I congratulate you on and to a certain extent envy you for the condition of your heart and its ability to hear voices.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You say no one knows that God exists?
How do you know that?

Quite simply because if anyone did know we'd have heard adequate justification for this belief by now. Since we haven't, it's a safe enough conclusion.

How do you know God hasnt made himself known to a person?

That isn't the issue. The issue is one of knowing that God has made himself known to a person. I realize that there are plenty of people who have had experiences that they interpret as God making himself known to them, but how do they know this is the case?

For example, it happened once that I fell head over heels in love. It was a singular experience in my life, never quite repeated. It was also a transformative experience -- I wasn't quite the same person coming out as going in. My personality was brighter. Emotional barriers had melted away. I was more open and less guarded. I was a friendlier and more sociable person. It was a thoroughly good experience for me, and completely outside of normal personal growth. (True story.)

Can I reasonably claim knowledge that this was a supernatural experience created for me by Cupid?

Yes,the heart does say different things to different people,because not everyones heart is the same.Some have wicked hearts,and hearts filled with hate,and unbelief,and some have hearts of stone.Some have humble hearts,and honest hearts.

It really isn't a question of honesty vs dishonesty. The biggest problem is that hearts are not judges of truth. Even the most honest, well-intentioned heart can be mistaken about reality. Honest hearts can disagree. If only life were so simple that all you have to do is have an honest heart, and then the secrets of life will be revealed, but life isn't that simple.


eudaimonia,

M.

 

[JGL53]

I used to be strongly atheist, and I still lean in that direction, but after spending a lot of time thinking I've come to realize that I don't, and can't, know why or how we're here. And it came from a rather simple thought: Why is there something instead of nothing?

This, to me, is an extremely interesting question. It doesn't deal with religion, it doesn't deal with evolution, it doesn't deal with the stars or the planets or Jesus or Muhammed. After thinking about it for a good while (A better part of a year) I'm beginning to understand that the chances of divine creation are every bit as likely as causality.

If we think to ourselves, "Okay, there is a universe. And we exist inside this universe. Why does this universe exist, and in turn, why do we exist?" We can reach the conclusion that it's just as easy for nothing to exist as it is for our something to exist.

I don't want to deal with whose god created what, or who's god didn't do anything. I frankly don't care. On one hand, I hate the thought that we might be alone in the Universe, should a Christian god exist. Why would the vast expanse of the universe be wasted on something as insignificant as the Earth? Equally, I hate the thought of my life happening over the span of ~80 years. Fin.

So I suppose the point of all this verbal diarrhea is this: If you are strongly opposed to one side or the other, consider for a minute the possibility that nothing could have ever existed, and no matter what, something extraordinary must have happened to bring about this chain of events, be it supernatural or causal.

This whole "problem" arises from assuming the classifications and categories of nature by western philosophy are somehow meaningful.

It’s a matter of cleaning the cobwebs from your brain, five. My advice is to put some time into a long term study in eastern thought, especially Zen Buddhism and Taoism - perhaps even read a few Alan Watts books. Then get back to us. I think you might discover there is no mind-boggling problem here at all - just a false logical dichotomy dreamed up by western theists.