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A simple question, I think

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Morat

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So you want to discuss cosmology?

Ok....if the Big Bang is true
Click to expand...
 

  Okay. If the Big Bang is true. Which model?

 and the whole universe (still expanding)
Click to expand...
 

  Yep. That's pretty much universally accepted. (the universe is expanding).

 grew from this one explosion of matter compacted into a tiny, tiny spot.....
Click to expand...

   That's an odd claim. Which model of the big bang is that?

.where did this matter that exploded come from?
Click to expand...

  What matter?

 
 
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Stormy

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The entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity, this is the moment before creation when space and time did not exist. According to the prevailing cosmological models that explain our universe, an ineffable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature on any measurement scale, that was infinitely dense, created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy but space and time itself. Cosmology theorists combined with the observations of their astronomy colleagues have been able to reconstruct the primordial chronology of events known as the big bang.

Tell me how any rational person can believe that this happened without God?

Explain to us …who?…what?…and how?
 
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Chris†opher Paul

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He will say that virtual particles appear from nothing except themselves (ouch my head), so the "atomic nucleus" could have appeared from nothing(except itself). I have already pointed out the problems with this view, but I just end up getting insulted.


Hey, you gotta admire the imagination.


Good luck.
 
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Yinlowang

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Actually the best model right now is inflation. Inflation starts with net 0 energy and net 0 matter. The higgs field is in a state called false vacuum. from that point you get a negative gravitational field and a huge increase in size. The gravitional field (negative energy) expands exponentially, while all those subatomic particles pop into existence to balance the energy state to 0.

Hmmm, that was not a very good.

Let's let the guy who came up with this idea explain it.

http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Guth/Guth_contents.html

Like I said before, I do not think this has anything to do with religion.  In my opinion it could have been just something that happend, or god did it.  In either case we will likely never know.  It happened before our ability to measure.  For some reason I do not think we will ever be able to peer beyond planck time to the actual begining of the universe.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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"If you have a negative gravitational field to start with, you don't start with nothing."

That is absolutley correct. There is NO theory or hypothesis regarding cosmic genesis (i.e. The Big Bang) that claims that the universe started with nothing. A vacuum, yes.. But a vacuum is NOT NOTHING. A vacuum may still have symmetry, dimentions, higgs fields, etc. etc. There are also different kinds of vacuums, and even false vacuums. Various theories about the beginings of the universe have it starting in some kind of vaccum, it is often misrepresented as being "nothing". Kind of like saying "there is nothing in the glass", when if fact it is full of air.

I always think that "nothingness cannot exist". In otherwords, it is impossible to have nothingness, therefor there must be "somthing". To me, that something could be God.

p.s. I would like to read up more on the evidence for the existance of virtual particles, then maybe we could discuss it (I think that the whole universe may be analagous to a virtual particle).
 
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Chris†opher Paul

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That is absolutley correct. There is NO theory or hypothesis regarding cosmic genesis (i.e. The Big Bang) that claims that the universe started with nothing. A vacuum, yes.. But a vacuum is NOT NOTHING.
Click to expand...

I'm glad one of "you" admit this fact. So, what is the origin of the vacuum?  Big Bang cosmology says that the Universe started...so it could have started from this vacuum...but the vacuum is not nothing, as you said.  Where did IT come from?  There has to be a first cause, logically.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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SInce nothingness is an impossiblity the vacuum or false vacuum or whatever must exist. Causation requires time. Time is a component of the physical universe we know. Time is a dimention, which becomes indistinguishable from spacial dimentions at the sub atomic level (10^13M).
 
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Chris†opher Paul

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If there is no space, there can't be time, at least we can't talk about it logically. Something had to exist to cause the Big Bang, or however far back you want to go...regardless of whether we can really talk about cause before there was time...there has to be a first, and that first, must be eternal.

Simply because we don't have words or the capability to think outside of time, doesn't mean that there didn't have to be a First Cause.  Common sense tells us that nothing could pop into existence from nothing...there has to be a First.
 
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Morat

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  "Yes....compress the most complex and cutting-edge physics into tiny-bite sized portions to shove down my throat."

   Sorry, Simple. While the Big Bang itself is quite solid (from 3 minutes onward, at least, when a relatavistic universe appeared), the first three minutes and anything "prior" (if you can use that word in the absence of time) is still up in the air.

   No Grand Unified Theory. No understanding of quantum gravity. Makes it sort of difficult, doesn't it?

   The vast majority of cosmologists are pretty convinced that inflation occured, because inflation explained several things (and successfully predicted several more). But the closer you get to singularity, the fuzzier it gets, because the physics to describe it simply doesn't exist. However, with the new accelerator ramping up at CERN, perhaps some answers will appear (along with the Higgs).

  So what's your problem? That we don't have all the answers? Big whoop. We never claimed we did. We just claimed that the answers we do get tend to be darn useful. You're reading this on one of them.

 

Soulah: Sure, there had to be a first. I'll agree. An eternal something. But why God when a primordial Higgs works just as well, and makes some nifty predictions in the process?
 
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Chris†opher Paul

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Originally posted by Morat
 Soulah: Sure, there had to be a first. I'll agree. An eternal something. But why God when a primordial Higgs works just as well, and makes some nifty predictions in the process?
Click to expand...

The concept of dimensionality was also irrelevant, and without time it was the ultimate state of non-existence. Heinz Pagels vividly describes this condition in his book  {Perfect Symmetry} as,

" The nothingness 'before' the creation of the universe is the most complete void that we can imagine -- no space, time or matter existed. It is a world without place, without duration or eternity, without number...yet this unthinkable void converts itself into the plenum of existence -- a necessary consequence of physical laws. Where are these laws written into the void? It would seem that even the void is subject to law, a logic that existed prior to time and space."

Where is the Higgs field in the VOID?
 
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