A rejection of Predestination.........

[cygnusx1]

It seems to me that millions of Christians pay lip service to the fact that they believe in predestination , after all it is in the Bible .

But upon careful analysis many do in fact reject predestination.

Many hold to the simplistic idea that God looks down the ages and makes a mental note of all those who will believe the good news and THEN He predestines them ...............but this would not be PREdestination but POSTdestination , for God would be destining sinners after the fact......

but then what need is there of any predestination at all??

Supposing God did predestine men based upon what they would do............then would it make any difference whatever if He just looked and watched and waited for the natural events to take place?

In other words POStdestination is totally and utterly unnecessary , just sit back and let things take there natural course.

Of course this flies in the face of scripture but you cannot hold onto pride and predestination....something has got to give!

 

[j-boot]

LOL...POSTdestination. Cute.

I am interested if anyone can produce a scripture in support of the notion of post-destination (i.e. that God foresees our choice of Him and responds by choosing us). So far the ONLY candidate I have seen is Romans 8:29, although this hinges on the interpretation of proginosko. At any rate, this verse does not speak to God's reasons for predestining.

 

[Imblessed]

Supposing God did predestine men based upon what they would do............then would it make any difference whatever if He just looked and watched and waited for the natural events to take place?

In other words POStdestination is totally and utterly unnecessary , just sit back and let things take there natural course.

absolutely NOT the God I read about!!!

 

[kyzar]

I am not reformed so excuse me for putting this here. Im not writing to be contentious, but simply to say this:
The bible is truth, it is God's unfallible word, perfect in every way and we cannot argue or refute it... (Sounds simple doesn't it?) So I am forced to believe that God chose those He would save (Pre not Post Destination, I doubt anyone could find scripture to back that up! lol)) But as I believe God chose me, I also must believe that God gave the option of salvation to everyone, (John 3:15,16, etc...). As i Said im not trying to cause contention, however i am simply saying the bible is Gods irefutable truth and we, as pety humans, can never truely understand the mind of God, and the work of His hand, until we are with Him in Heaven!!!

Sorry if anyone's angry at me...
God Bless, and thank-you all...

 

[5solas]

I am interested if anyone can produce a scripture in support of the notion of post-destination (i.e. that God foresees our choice of Him and responds by choosing us).

mission definitely impossible.....


what about this?
Ps 69,28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

(an attempt often used by "postdestinationists", e.g. Arminians)

POSTdestination

 

[5solas]

It seems to me that millions of Christians pay lip service to the fact that they believe in predestination , after all it is in the Bible.....

Many hold to the simplistic idea that God looks down the ages and makes a mental note of all those who will believe the good news and THEN He predestines them ...............but this would not be PREdestination but POSTdestination , for God would be destining sinners after the fact......

You are absolutely right .

And one of the worst sentences I've ever read was this

:

Clark Pinnock concurs: "God gives us room to make genuine decisions and works along side us in the temporal process. What we do matters to God. God responds to us like a dancer with her partner..."

source: http://www.comereason.org/newsletters/may02.htm

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Actually, God does the leading, and we respond to Him like a dancer with her partner. I actially like that image. God leads, we respond.

 

[Irishcat922]

A.W. pink said " God is Sovereign and man is responsible " God sovereignly chooses and rejects whom He wills and man is completely responsible for either accepting or rejecting the Gospel.

 

[5solas]

Actually, God does the leading, and we respond to Him like a dancer with her partner. I actially like that image. God leads, we respond.

Exactly

but what Pinnock said was just the other way round and that's

and

 

[5solas]

A.W. pink said " God is Sovereign and man is responsible " God sovereignly chooses and rejects whom He wills and man is completely responsible for either accepting or rejecting the Gospel.

That's the biblical way it is!

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Exactly

but what Pinnock said was just the other way round and that's

and

Where did you get the dancing smileys?

 

[5solas]

Where did you get the dancing smileys?

http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie132/00001734.gif

try www.smiliemania.de and then look it up - I think - under party or lachen

- just copy and insert the smilies

bye, God bless

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Like that?

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Hows that?

 

[Reformationist]

It seems to me that millions of Christians pay lip service to the fact that they believe in predestination , after all it is in the Bible .

But upon careful analysis many do in fact reject predestination.

Many hold to the simplistic idea that God looks down the ages and makes a mental note of all those who will believe the good news and THEN He predestines them ...............but this would not be PREdestination but POSTdestination , for God would be destining sinners after the fact......

but then what need is there of any predestination at all??

Supposing God did predestine men based upon what they would do............then would it make any difference whatever if He just looked and watched and waited for the natural events to take place?

In other words POStdestination is totally and utterly unnecessary , just sit back and let things take there natural course.

Of course this flies in the face of scripture but you cannot hold onto pride and predestination....something has got to give!

I know what you mean. I've raised this exact same issue numerous times. I've also pointed out that all of the forseen objections raised by Paul in Romans 9 make no sense if God's choice is based on what He sees us do.

Anyway, postdestination is unbiblical. You're definitely right about that. And, you're right that the idea of God choosing apart from man's natural choice has no place in the prideful theology that runs amok in so many Christian circles today.

Isn't it nice to not have to explain away these types of inconsistancies?

God bless

 

[cygnusx1]

Here's the thing , I have found great comfort warmth and inspiration and motivation from the doctrines of grace / Calvinism .

Now why would anybody reject , refuse and change scripture when these things are written for our edification and comfort?

What comfort is there in thinking heaven has many dwellings that were prepared for many Christians ..........you know brothers and sisters in Christ who just didn't make it all the way ? where is the comfort to me if God can lose one single Christian , He can lose them ALL !!!

 

[cajunhillbilly]

True the doctrines of grace give much comfort.

 

[adam149]

I am not reformed so excuse me for putting this here. Im not writing to be contentious, but simply to say this:
The bible is truth, it is God's unfallible word, perfect in every way and we cannot argue or refute it... (Sounds simple doesn't it?)

I agree, so long as you actually mean infallible and not unfallible, though that term might work too...

So I am forced to believe that God chose those He would save (Pre not Post Destination, I doubt anyone could find scripture to back that up! lol)) But as I believe God chose me, I also must believe that God gave the option of salvation to everyone, (John 3:15,16, etc...). As i Said im not trying to cause contention, however i am simply saying the bible is Gods irefutable truth and we, as pety humans, can never truely understand the mind of God, and the work of His hand, until we are with Him in Heaven!!!

But the doctrines of election and universalism are incompatible. If God predestined who would be saved, it has to logically follow that He also predestined who would not. God could not have predestined some to salvation and at the same time extended it to all. John 3:15, 16 is saying that anyone who believes on Christ will be saved, but there have already lived and died who have not.

Something to think on.

Sorry if anyone's angry at me...

Not at all.

God Bless, and thank-you all...

You as well.

 

[Follower of Christ]

It seems to me that millions of Christians pay lip service to the fact that they believe in predestination , after all it is in the Bible .

But upon careful analysis many do in fact reject predestination.

Many hold to the simplistic idea that God looks down the ages and makes a mental note of all those who will believe the good news and THEN He predestines them ...............but this would not be PREdestination but POSTdestination , for God would be destining sinners after the fact......

but then what need is there of any predestination at all??

Supposing God did predestine men based upon what they would do............then would it make any difference whatever if He just looked and watched and waited for the natural events to take place?

In other words POStdestination is totally and utterly unnecessary , just sit back and let things take there natural course.

Of course this flies in the face of scripture but you cannot hold onto pride and predestination....something has got to give!

Hey cyggy

Im still undecided on all this.
I can see many of the predestination points in the text, but there is just enough there to argue your ''post-destination'' or something similar to it.

Im going to keep studying it. Im sure Ive read all the relevant scripture 100 times already, but it still seems to me, in my mind at least, that God merely foreknew us and our decision and therefore acted accordingly.

This is one passage that leaves me hanging....Ive heard a couple different views on it but I refuse to make a solid call until I see it for myself without all the ''interpretation''

Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

(Rom 8:29-30)

For whom he did foreknow - The word used here προέγνωproegno¯ has been the subject of almost endless disputes in regard to its meaning in this place. The literal meaning of the word cannot be a matter of dispute. It denotes properly to "know beforehand;" to be acquainted with future events.

But whether it means here simply to know that certain persons would become Christians; or to ordain, and constitute them to be Christians, and to be saved, has been a subject of almost endless discussion....Barnes

My question is why its presented like that....as in His foreknowing like that.
Why not just skip the foreknowledge part and say ''predestined'' ?

anyway.....thats one of a few passages that keep me believing in this ''postdestinatoin'' for now

 

[Reformationist]

This is one passage that leaves me hanging....Ive heard a couple different views on it but I refuse to make a solid call until I see it for myself without all the ''interpretation''





My question is why its presented like that....as in His foreknowing like that.
Why not just skip the foreknowledge part and say ''predestined'' ?

anyway.....thats one of a few passages that keep me believing in this ''postdestinatoin'' for now

If I may, let me provide you with some food for thought. If "foreknew" simply means "to know beforehand" then this passage because pointless. Surely God, who is omniscient, knows everything before it comes to pass in history, right? That includes each of the people He created as well as everything they would do, right? So, to say "whom He foreknew He predestined" is a bit redundant. If He knew everyone in the sense of simply "knowing beforehand" then we must also submit that He predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of His Son. So, we're left with a choice here. Either we acknowledge that "foreknew" does not simply mean "know beforehand" or we make the predestination of God meaningless.

God bless