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A Reasoned Case Against Impeachment

civilwarbuff

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Prof. Jonathan Turley: "legal case for impeachment is not just woefully inadequate, but in some respects, dangerous"

prepared written statement,
(Caution, 53 pages)

Here are some key exerpts from Prof. Turley’s prepared written statement, which is scholarly and thorough:

…. one can oppose President Trump’s policies or actions but still conclude that the current legal case for impeachment is not just woefully inadequate, but in some respects, dangerous, as the basis for the impeachment of an American president. To put it simply, I hold no brief for President Trump. My personal and political views of President Trump, however, are irrelevant to my impeachment testimony, as they should be to your impeachment vote. Today, my only concern is the integrity and coherence of the constitutional standard and process of impeachment. President Trump will not be our last president and what we leave in the wake of this scandal will shape our democracy for generations to come. I am concerned about lowering impeachment standards to fit a paucity of evidence and an abundance of anger. If the House proceeds solely on the Ukrainian allegations, this impeachment would stand out among modern impeachments as the shortest proceeding, with the thinnest evidentiary record, and the narrowest grounds ever used to impeach a president.7 That does not bode well for future presidents who are working in a country often sharply and, at times, bitterly divided.


* * *

In the end, I believe that this process has raised serious and legitimate issues for investigation. Indeed, I have previously stated that a quid pro quo to force the investigation of a political rival in exchange for military aid can be impeachable, if proven. Yet moving forward primarily or exclusively with the Ukraine controversy on this record would be as precarious as it would premature.

* * *

As I have stressed, it is possible to establish a case for impeachment based on a non-criminal allegation of abuse of power. However, although criminality is not required in such a case, clarity is necessary. That comes from a complete and comprehensive record that eliminates exculpatory motivations or explanations. The problem is that this is an exceptionally narrow impeachment resting on the thinnest possible evidentiary record…. Even under the most flexible English impeachment model, there remained an expectation that impeachments could not be based on presumption or speculation on key elements.

* * *

In the current case, the record is facially insufficient. The problem is not simply that the record does not contain direct evidence of the President stating a quid pro quo, as Chairman Schiff has suggested. The problem is that the House has not bothered to subpoena the key witnesses who would have such direct knowledge. This alone sets a dangerous precedent. A House in the future could avoid countervailing evidence by simply relying on tailored records with testimony from people who offer damning presumptions or speculation. It is not enough to simply shrug and say this is “close enough for jazz” in an impeachment. The expectation, as shown by dozens of failed English impeachments, was that the lower house must offer a complete and compelling record. That is not to say that the final record must have a confession or incriminating statement from the accused. Rather, it was meant to be a complete record of the key witnesses that establishes the full range of material evidence. Only then could the body reach a conclusion on the true weight of the evidence—a conclusion that carries sufficient legitimacy with the public to justify the remedy of removal.

* * *

A comparison of the current impeachment inquiry with the three prior presidential inquiries puts a few facts into sharp relief. First, this is a case without a clear criminal act and would be the first such case in history if the House proceeds without further evidence. In all three impeachment inquiries, the commission of criminal acts by Johnson, Nixon, and Clinton were clear and established….

Second, the abbreviated period of investigation into this controversy is both problematic and puzzling…. We have never seen a controversy arise for the first time and move to an impeachment in such a short period…. To be blunt, if the schedule is being accelerated by the approach of the Iowa caucuses, it would be both an artificial and inimical element to introduce into the process….

Finally, the difference in the record is striking…. The Ukrainian matter is largely built around a handful of witnesses and a schedule that reportedly set the matter for a vote within weeks of the underlying presidential act. Such a wafer-thin record only magnifies the problems already present in a narrowly constructed impeachment.

Turley also provided, as part of his legal point, this handy guide to Democrat demands for impeachment (it’s a dense paragraph, so I added some hard paragraph breaks for ease of reading):

These efforts reflect the long history of impeachment being used as a way to amplify political differences and grievances. Such legislative throat clearing has been stopped by the House by more circumspect members before articles were drafted or
passed.

This misuse of impeachment has been plain during the Trump Administration. Members have called for removal based on a myriad of objections against this President. Rep. Al Green (D-Texas) filed a resolution in the House of Representatives for impeachment after Trump called for players kneeling during the national anthem to be fired.20 Others called for impeachment over President Trump’s controversial statement on the Charlottesville protests.21 Rep. Steve Cohen’s (D-Tenn.) explained that “If the president can’t recognize the difference between these domestic terrorists and the people who oppose their anti-American attitudes, then he cannot defend us.”22

These calls have been joined by an array of legal experts who have insisted that clear criminal conduct by Trump, including treason, have been shown in the Russian investigation. Professor Lawrence Tribe argued that Trump’s pardoning of former Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio is clearly impeachable and could even be overturned by the courts.23 Richard Painter, chief White House ethics lawyer for George W. Bush and a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School, declared that President Trump’s participation in fundraisers for Senators, a common practice of all presidents in election years, is impeachable. Painter insists that any such fundraising can constitute “felony bribery” since these senators will likely sit in judgment in any impeachment trial. Painter declared “This is a bribe. Any other American who offered cash to the jury before a trial would go to prison for felony bribery. But he can get away with it?”24

CNN Legal Analyst Jeff Toobin declared, on the air, that Trump could be impeached solely on the basis of a tweet in which Trump criticized then Attorney General Jeff Sessions for federal charges brought against two Republican congressman shortly before the mid-term elections.25 CNN Legal Analyst and former White House ethics attorney Norm Eisen claimed before the release of the Mueller report (which ultimately rejected any knowing collusion or conspiracy by Trump officials with Russian operatives) that the criminal case for collusion was “devastating” and that Trump is “colluding in plain sight.”26

More of Turley’s testimony:
 
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Freodin

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Have you read Prof. Turley statements that he made back then regarding the Clinton impeachment?

My, how positions can change after a few years... or because your guy sits on the throne now...
 
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civilwarbuff

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Have you read Prof. Turley statements that he made back then regarding the Clinton impeachment?

My, how positions can change after a few years... or because your guy sits on the throne now...
Maybe you can post a link here?
 
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Freodin

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Maybe you can post a link here?

"In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the Government becomes a lawbreaker; it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. The allegations against President Clinton go to the very heart of the legitimacy of his office and the integrity of the political system. As an individual, a president may seek spiritual redemption in the company of friends and family. Constitutional redemption, however, is found only in the company of representatives of all three branches in the well of the Senate. It is there that legitimacy, once recklessly lost, can be regained by a president."
From this source, which also links back to the complete Turley post on the Clinton impeachment.

Summarized, it says: "We must impeach Clinton, because if we don't, it will be anarchy in the USA."
Remember: After years of investigations that brought nothing, Bill Clinton was impeached for having lied about a sexual relationship. His was accused of lying under oath and obstruction of justice.

That was enough for Turley to consider it "at the very heart of the legitimacy of the office and the integrity of the political system." Lying about sex.

But abuse of power, bribery, and, interestingly, obstruction of justice, in the case of Trump... well, this is a "dangerous basis" for impeachment.

Talk about changing your tune...
 
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essentialsaltes

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In the end, I believe that this process has raised serious and legitimate issues for investigation. Indeed, I have previously stated that a quid pro quo to force the investigation of a political rival in exchange for military aid can be impeachable, if proven. Yet moving forward primarily or exclusively with the Ukraine controversy on this record would be as precarious as it would premature.

Turley would be satisfied that impeachment would be justified if he felt the case had been adequately proven. The charges, at least potentially, are definitely impeachable in his view. Keep that point in mind. Turley was not saying that this was all nonsense. Turley was looking for a more conclusive case. We will all see what the process uncovers.

In the current case, the record is facially insufficient. The problem is not simply that the record does not contain direct evidence of the President stating a quid pro quo, as Chairman Schiff has suggested. The problem is that the House has not bothered to subpoena the key witnesses who would have such direct knowledge.

On the contrary, Congress has subpoenaed such witnesses. Trump has ordered them, probably illegally, not to comply with the valid Congressional subpoenas.

By moving forward, the Democrats are increasing the pressure to have these other witnesses testify. Trump will either have to relent (or the courts could step in) and let them testify (and produce subpoenaed documents), or his actions will prove an obstruction of justice article. If we get additional evidence to examine, then we will see if the evidence meets Turley's bar of proof. Or more importantly, if it meets the American people's. And the Senate's.
 
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civilwarbuff

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"In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the Government becomes a lawbreaker; it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. The allegations against President Clinton go to the very heart of the legitimacy of his office and the integrity of the political system. As an individual, a president may seek spiritual redemption in the company of friends and family. Constitutional redemption, however, is found only in the company of representatives of all three branches in the well of the Senate. It is there that legitimacy, once recklessly lost, can be regained by a president."
From this source, which also links back to the complete Turley post on the Clinton impeachment.

Summarized, it says: "We must impeach Clinton, because if we don't, it will be anarchy in the USA."
Remember: After years of investigations that brought nothing, Bill Clinton was impeached for having lied about a sexual relationship. His was accused of lying under oath and obstruction of justice.

That was enough for Turley to consider it "at the very heart of the legitimacy of the office and the integrity of the political system." Lying about sex.

But abuse of power, bribery, and, interestingly, obstruction of justice, in the case of Trump... well, this is a "dangerous basis" for impeachment.

Talk about changing your tune...
IIRC, Clinton actually did commit perjury and temporarily lost his law license over it.

Contempt of court citation
In April 1999, about two months after being acquitted by the Senate, Clinton was cited by Federal District Judge Susan Webber Wright for civil contempt of court for his "willful failure" to obey her repeated orders to testify truthfully in the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit. For this citation, Clinton was assessed a $90,000 fine, and the matter was referred to the Arkansas Supreme Court to see if disciplinary action would be appropriate.[36]

Regarding Clinton's January 17, 1998, deposition where he was placed under oath, the judge wrote:

Simply put, the president's deposition testimony regarding whether he had ever been alone with Ms. (Monica) Lewinsky was intentionally false, and his statements regarding whether he had ever engaged in sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky likewise were intentionally false ...[36]

On the day before leaving office in January 2001, Clinton, in what amounted to a plea bargain, agreed to a five-year suspension of his Arkansas law license and to pay a $25,000 fine as part of an agreement with the independent counsel Robert Ray to end his investigation without filing any criminal charges for perjury or obstruction of justice.[37][38] Clinton was automatically suspended from the United States Supreme Court bar as a result of his law license suspension. However, as is customary, he was allowed 40 days to appeal an otherwise-automatic disbarment. Clinton resigned from the Supreme Court bar during the 40-day appeals period.[39]
wiki
 
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whatbogsends

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"In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the Government becomes a lawbreaker; it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. The allegations against President Clinton go to the very heart of the legitimacy of his office and the integrity of the political system. As an individual, a president may seek spiritual redemption in the company of friends and family. Constitutional redemption, however, is found only in the company of representatives of all three branches in the well of the Senate. It is there that legitimacy, once recklessly lost, can be regained by a president."
From this source, which also links back to the complete Turley post on the Clinton impeachment.

Summarized, it says: "We must impeach Clinton, because if we don't, it will be anarchy in the USA."
Remember: After years of investigations that brought nothing, Bill Clinton was impeached for having lied about a sexual relationship. His was accused of lying under oath and obstruction of justice.

That was enough for Turley to consider it "at the very heart of the legitimacy of the office and the integrity of the political system." Lying about sex.

But abuse of power, bribery, and, interestingly, obstruction of justice, in the case of Trump... well, this is a "dangerous basis" for impeachment.

Talk about changing your tune...

This sounds much more like a biased case against impeachment rather than a reasoned one.
 
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whatbogsends

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IIRC, Clinton actually did commit perjury and temporarily lost his law license over it.

Contempt of court citation
In April 1999, about two months after being acquitted by the Senate, Clinton was cited by Federal District Judge Susan Webber Wright for civil contempt of court for his "willful failure" to obey her repeated orders to testify truthfully in the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit. For this citation, Clinton was assessed a $90,000 fine, and the matter was referred to the Arkansas Supreme Court to see if disciplinary action would be appropriate.[36]

Regarding Clinton's January 17, 1998, deposition where he was placed under oath, the judge wrote:

Simply put, the president's deposition testimony regarding whether he had ever been alone with Ms. (Monica) Lewinsky was intentionally false, and his statements regarding whether he had ever engaged in sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky likewise were intentionally false ...[36]

On the day before leaving office in January 2001, Clinton, in what amounted to a plea bargain, agreed to a five-year suspension of his Arkansas law license and to pay a $25,000 fine as part of an agreement with the independent counsel Robert Ray to end his investigation without filing any criminal charges for perjury or obstruction of justice.[37][38] Clinton was automatically suspended from the United States Supreme Court bar as a result of his law license suspension. However, as is customary, he was allowed 40 days to appeal an otherwise-automatic disbarment. Clinton resigned from the Supreme Court bar during the 40-day appeals period.[39]
wiki

Let's get Trump under oath and see how long he lasts before he perjures himself.
 
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Freodin

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IIRC, Clinton actually did commit perjury and temporarily lost his law license over it.
Ah, see, that's the problem.
It can be reasonably argued that Clinton did indeed commit perjury. But here's the problem: the impeachment is an accusation, a trial at court.
The question at stake here is not, did Clinton do it, but was it right to charge Clinton with it. Consider: the relevant court - the Senate - found Clinton "not guilty" of the two charges.

He entered what was basically a plea bargin with a different court over his actions in the Paula Jones lawsuit later, which included the temporary suspension of his law licence. But that's a different matter.

But the gist of the matter: Turley insisted that Clinton needed to be charged, for the reasons he cited. Regardless of whether he was to be convicted, he needed to be charged, else the goverment would collapse into anarchy.

Now the allegations against Trump are a lot more serious in the given context, and there is valid evidence and testimoney for them. I don't have much hope that in the current ultra-partisan atmosphere in your government, that Trump is going to be convicted - even if, like Clinton, he obviously did what he is charged with.
But if Turley was consistent in his views, he would insist on Trump being charged, so that, as he said it, he could find "constitutional redemption".
 
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civilwarbuff

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Ah, see, that's the problem.
It can be reasonably argued that Clinton did indeed commit perjury. But here's the problem: the impeachment is an accusation, a trial at court.
The question at stake here is not, did Clinton do it, but was it right to charge Clinton with it. Consider: the relevant court - the Senate - found Clinton "not guilty" of the two charges.
But then a Federal District Judge found him guilty for disobeying her orders and the plea bargain is an admission of guilt that he perjured himself.
But the gist of the matter: Turley insisted that Clinton needed to be charged, for the reasons he cited. Regardless of whether he was to be convicted, he needed to be charged, else the goverment would collapse into anarchy.
Because there was 1st hand evidence that Bill was lying....her name is Monica Lewinski.
Any first hand knowledge of Trump asking anyone for a quid pro quo (or bribery as they have now rephrased it)? Huge difference between the 2 cases.
 
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KCfromNC

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On the contrary, Congress has subpoenaed such witnesses. Trump has ordered them, probably illegally, not to comply with the valid Congressional subpoenas.

Not to mention Donald rejected an offer to show up at the hearings and clear all this up. Whining about how the people who could possibly correct the previous testimony haven't been heard from rings pretty hollow when the guy who would be helped by those corrections won't let them make those corrections.

Aside from the obvious obstruction part, it really reads like the behavior of someone who has a lot to hide. Pretending anything different doesn't look at all reasonable.

But hey, at least the OP gives us more data points on how fast the RNC and/or RT and their friends can churn out new vapid talking points.
 
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redleghunter

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Have you read Prof. Turley statements that he made back then regarding the Clinton impeachment?

My, how positions can change after a few years... or because your guy sits on the throne now...
What I saw from Turley is that he is consistent. Probably the only consistent lawyer (this includes members of Congress) in the room.

He made it quite clear the political angst demonstrated by the House Democrats against all things Trump really sullied the entire process they were going through.
 
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KCfromNC

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What I saw from Turley is that he is consistent. Probably the only consistent lawyer (this includes members of Congress) in the room.


Weird conclusion given the demonstrated issues having the claims in his opening statement be consistent with the facts of the case.
 
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redleghunter

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But abuse of power, bribery, and, interestingly, obstruction of justice, in the case of Trump.
Which Schiff and now Nadler are failing to prove. What they do have Trump on is a thought crime. Trump was thinking a certain way and they have 'proof' he was thinking it. That won't get you past even traffic court.
 
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KCfromNC

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Which Schiff and now Nadler are failing to prove.
Which specific arguments of theirs do you find insufficient, and why?

Without that info, this really reads like yet another post implying there's some defense against the evidence presented against Donald which then runs away from actually giving that defense.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Weird conclusion given the demonstrated issues having the claims in his opening statement be consistent with the facts of the case.
Where are they not consistent?...and in what way?
 
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redleghunter

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Turley would be satisfied that impeachment would be justified if he felt the case had been adequately proven.
Yes this is very important when one is trying to actually put someone in jail or in this case remove from office. What's happening now is Nadler is left to try to 'prove' Schiff's narrative and timeline with a lot of speculation and innuendo as the sinew.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Which specific arguments of theirs do you find insufficient, and why?

Without that info, this really reads like yet another post implying there's some defense against the evidence presented against Donald which then runs away from actually giving that defense.
What evidence?....not that I expect a concrete answer like, ya know....evidence?
 
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KCfromNC

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What evidence?
The stuff in the testimony of the various witnesses and included in the report from the committee. You know, speaking of consistent, the one that GOP members both didn't have the time to read while at the same time are confident that it contains no evidence. Yet another argument seemingly made in bad faith.
 
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